Controversial Opinions

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Re: Controversial Opinions

Unread postby Jzone » 4 December 2018, 01:03

As far as I'm concerned, this is one of the few Christmas songs worth listening to.

"...on each end of the rifle we're the same."

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Re: Controversial Opinions

Unread postby Szymonnikt » 4 December 2018, 01:06

Jzone wrote:As far as I'm concerned, this is one of the few Christmas songs worth listening to.

"...on each end of the rifle we're the same."



https://youtu.be/U3P_uNXGPwk
Like this one.

I fucking love John :heart:
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Re: Controversial Opinions

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 4 December 2018, 06:52

PopTart wrote:For them, there is no shame, no harm and no problem with their cultural practices, who are we to tell them they ought to feel that way about the things that they do? What right do we have? Because we see something shameful, so too should they? I never knew you were so catholic in your mindset.

Actually I cited the Etoro—a real tribe whose elders appoint men to inseminate prepubescent boys so as to make them viril warriors from the “life force” injected into them on a regular basis. There’s nothing Catholic about my criticism towards them. If anything, this tribe is following a very Catholic tradition of kid-fucking.

You ask, rhetorically, who are we to say that they’re wrong. Well, do you thinking fucking a 10-year-old is harmful, neutral or positive? I’d really like to know your answer to this. It isn’t a gotcha question.

You say I “disregard the deeper intricacies and longer term consequences.” What are the deeper intricacies and longer term consequences of stoping the Etoro from fucking kids? That in the process of intervening their belief in semen as a supernatural life force will cease to be a cultural meme passed down to future generations? It’s easy to sound ethically enlightened when you don’t have to apply your relativist standards to real-life situations. It isn’t like I’m dreaming up these people into existence. Or genital mutilators, or those who amputate albinos for luck-charm limbs, etc.
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Re: Controversial Opinions

Unread postby RJD » 4 December 2018, 07:00

Zoop wrote:
Marmaduke wrote:I think Harry Potter should have died at the end of the series


I think Dobby should have survived, although I suppose that's not all too controversial.

I thought Bellatrix should have killed Molly and Ginny.
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Re: Controversial Opinions

Unread postby Brenden » 4 December 2018, 12:57

poolerboy0077 wrote:
PopTart wrote:For them, there is no shame, no harm and no problem with their cultural practices, who are we to tell them they ought to feel that way about the things that they do? What right do we have? Because we see something shameful, so too should they? I never knew you were so catholic in your mindset.

Actually I cited the Etoro—a real tribe whose elders appoint men to inseminate prepubescent boys so as to make them viril warriors from the “life force” injected into them on a regular basis. There’s nothing Catholic about my criticism towards them. If anything, this tribe is following a very Catholic tradition of kid-fucking.

You ask, rhetorically, who are we to say that they’re wrong. Well, do you thinking fucking a 10-year-old is harmful, neutral or positive? I’d really like to know your answer to this. It isn’t a gotcha question.

You say I “disregard the deeper intricacies and longer term consequences.” What are the deeper intricacies and longer term consequences of stoping the Etoro from fucking kids? That in the process of intervening their belief in semen as a supernatural life force will cease to be a cultural meme passed down to future generations? It’s easy to sound ethically enlightened when you don’t have to apply your relativist standards to real-life situations. It isn’t like I’m dreaming up these people into existence. Or genital mutilators, or those who amputate albinos for luck-charm limbs, etc.

Psychologically, what harm is done, if the supposed victim believes they've been made stronger by the act and the supposed perpetrator has done so out of a sense of generosity?

What the Etoro do is a lot less objectively harmful that infant male genital mutilation.
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Re: Controversial Opinions

Unread postby Satsuma » 4 December 2018, 14:28

Brenden wrote:Psychologically, what harm is done, if the supposed victim believes they've been made stronger by the act and the supposed perpetrator has done so out of a sense of generosity?

What the Etoro do is a lot less objectively harmful that infant male genital mutilation.


It being less objectively harmful doesn't mean it's still not harmful.

I agree with pooler on this. We shouldn't go in and force them to stop, no, but gradual contact and a sense of understanding to help us gauge whether or not their societies are actually harmful to individuals within them is one hundred percent necessary in my opinion.

And despite being a fan of it now, when I was a kid the last thing I'd have wanted is someone's schlong down my throat.
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Re: Controversial Opinions

Unread postby erti » 4 December 2018, 14:46

i love foreskin on a male penis. if i ever get pregnant and have a kid they will NOT be circumcised. it's cruel to the baby to circumcise.

yet it's a common practice in the united states.
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Re: Controversial Opinions

Unread postby Brenden » 4 December 2018, 14:49

Zoop wrote:
Brenden wrote:Psychologically, what harm is done, if the supposed victim believes they've been made stronger by the act and the supposed perpetrator has done so out of a sense of generosity?

What the Etoro do is a lot less objectively harmful that infant male genital mutilation.

It being less objectively harmful doesn't mean it's still not harmful.

My point there is that we, our society/culture, is doing harmful things that are outright and obviously harmful every day on a mind-numbingly massive scale. We should put ourselves right before we go and try to stop lesser misdeeds of others.

It would be a different matter if the other culture were, e.g., sacrificing all non-firstborn male infants (to perpetuate some kind of polygamous society, say). That is objectively worse than male genital mutilation.

But, my other point with regard to the Etoro specifically is that it doesn't appear to be harmful. It only seems harmful to us based on our views of what constitutes childhood and sexuality.

Zoop wrote:And despite being a fan of it now, when I was a kid the last thing I'd have wanted is someone's schlong down my throat.

You probably would if you thought it would make you grow up to be a strong man with a prolonged life. Done part of a ceremony that you'd witnessed dozens of times in which everyone around you participated in.
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Re: Controversial Opinions

Unread postby rogonandi » 4 December 2018, 15:02

There is no god, and ‘heaven’ is merely an end to the suffering of many people that endured a life of pain and misery.
People love to follow fools; they don't feel so alone then.
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Re: Controversial Opinions

Unread postby Satsuma » 4 December 2018, 15:02

Brenden wrote:My point there is that we, our society/culture, is doing harmful things that are outright and obviously harmful every day on a mind-numbingly massive scale. We should put ourselves right before we go and try to stop lesser misdeeds of others.

It would be a different matter if the other culture were, e.g., sacrificing all non-firstborn male infants (to perpetuate some kind of polygamous society, say). That is objectively worse than male genital mutilation.

But, my other point with regard to the Etoro specifically is that it doesn't appear to be harmful. It only seems harmful to us based on our views of what constitutes childhood and sexuality.
You probably would if you thought it would make you grow up to be a strong man with a prolonged life. Done part of a ceremony that you'd witnessed dozens of times in which everyone around you participated in.


I understand that thinking, but I feel like parts of any society will never be right. Putting ourselves right first, polishing every aspect of society to make it perfect before we intervene somewhere else, would be impossible.

Why doesn't it appear to be harmful? If it were optional, then maybe it wouldn't be so bad. I mean it still wouldn't be great that ten year olds were being encouraged to have oral sex with grown men. There's an age of consent in most nations around the world for a reason.

And I wouldn't necessarily think that. Take gym at school, meant to encourage friendships, exercise, healthy living and basically growing up into a healthy, fit person right? I hated it, it traumatised me practically at school and I still shudder at my experiences then now.

Not everyone wants to follow the mentality of the crowd, even at ten years old. Maybe especially at ten years old. Can you be certain everyone believes the same thing? That they're all basically thought clones of each other?

I can't.
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Re: Controversial Opinions

Unread postby BlackBoi666 » 4 December 2018, 17:00

rogonandi wrote:There is no god, and ‘heaven’ is merely an end to the suffering of many people that endured a life of pain and misery.

100% total agreement
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Re: Controversial Opinions

Unread postby PopTart » 4 December 2018, 20:02

poolerboy0077 wrote:Actually I cited the Etoro—a real tribe whose elders appoint men to inseminate prepubescent boys so as to make them viril warriors from the “life force” injected into them on a regular basis. There’s nothing Catholic about my criticism towards them. If anything, this tribe is following a very Catholic tradition of kid-fucking.

You ask, rhetorically, who are we to say that they’re wrong. Well, do you thinking fucking a 10-year-old is harmful, neutral or positive? I’d really like to know your answer to this. It isn’t a gotcha question.

I'm aware of Etoro, yes and I'm also aware that, last time I heard of them, they don't "fuck" boys of ten, but instead, the semen is ingested, as Brenden pointed out, in a ritual.

As Brenden also said, we regard their tradition with our own cultural lens. The boys, from what i was given to understand, saw no shame or harm in what the tradition entailed. It was no less normal or harmful than any other practice we might have experienced in our youth's, it's just different. It is in no way equal to or similar to genital mutilation (which again, thank you Brendon, has been practiced on boys across the world for millenia, I don't see anyone rushing to halt that particular cultural practice) or loping off pieces of Albinos for luck charms.

Once again, I will empasise for you, in bold this time, so you might actually see it. My views aren't so rigid as to preclude intervention, where harm is blatantly obvious in taking place my adoption of a non-interventionist ideal, is where there is no clear signs of harm, where the culture in question has clearly stated they have no desire for contact and interference and where in there is no other pressing need to force upon those peoples, contact.

Your use of exaggerated examples, practices found in long ago "discovered" and contacted cultures, that are very much part of the international community, I might add, are simply thought experiments. So if it makes you feel better, yes, if there was a culture, in which, a people were cutting off the limbs of new born babes, to turn them into decorative furniture, then this might be a good reason for intervention.

The real world examples you cite, I don't think are. (refering here to the Etoro, because your bound to come back about the albinos and the mutilation)

I support non-intervention as being a valid choice, when there are no real world justifiable reasons for interefering.


poolerboy0077 wrote:You say I “disregard the deeper intricacies and longer term consequences.” What are the deeper intricacies and longer term consequences of stoping the Etoro from fucking kids? That in the process of intervening their belief in semen as a supernatural life force will cease to be a cultural meme passed down to future generations? It’s easy to sound ethically enlightened when you don’t have to apply your relativist standards to real-life situations. It isn’t like I’m dreaming up these people into existence. Or genital mutilators, or those who amputate albinos for luck-charm limbs, etc.

I'm not a strict adherent to he relativist school of thought, I do believe in some absolute truths, the sanctity of human life for example, basic human rights, entropy being an overwhelmingly undeniable force.

but when it comes to human nature, human cultures, yeah i can be quite the relativist. I disagree with and would encourage intervention in those soceities that practice genital mutilation (happens alot in Africa, so I'm told) yet, I also have no problem with male circumcission :shrug: I never claimed to be consistant. I take each individual case an try to weigh it against what i believe to be right, I simply admit, that I don't know enough to be right about everything, just the very big and obvious stuff. The rest, I'd rather not act rashly, as the consequences can be far reaching.

What do the people of Etoro tribe gain from their rituals. Honestly, I don't know, but I don't know what christians get from believing in sin and living in fear of eventual pnishment in the afterlife, but I realised along time ago that you have to let people have their beliefs, to come to reason in their own time and on their own terms, so long as they do no real harm. Forcing the issue doesn't always work and can often led to the opposite outcome as reactionary forces can win out in the long run, to far worse effect.
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Re: Controversial Opinions

Unread postby Satsuma » 4 December 2018, 20:07

So pedophilia isn't harmful?
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Re: Controversial Opinions

Unread postby PopTart » 4 December 2018, 20:11

Zoop wrote:So pedophilia isn't harmful?

In the context of their society, it isn't pedophilia. It is passing on spiritual strength from one person to another.

As I said, not really something I agree with, but if the ritual carries no shame, no pyschological or physical harm and instead gives the kid the sense that they are becoming more than they were before :shrug:
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Re: Controversial Opinions

Unread postby erti » 4 December 2018, 20:14

Zoop wrote:So pedophilia isn't harmful?


only when a pedophile molests a child. those who never harm children should be free to seek help for themselves.
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Re: Controversial Opinions

Unread postby PopTart » 4 December 2018, 20:15

erti wrote:
Zoop wrote:So pedophilia isn't harmful?


only when a pedophile molests a child. those who never harm children should be free to seek help for themselves.

Thats also a controversial opinion I would echo.

I think helping such people control or overcome their urges, rather than ostracising them in society, might actually lead to fewer children getting molested.
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Re: Controversial Opinions

Unread postby Satsuma » 4 December 2018, 20:31

PopTart wrote:I think helping such people control or overcome their urges, rather than ostracising them in society, might actually lead to fewer children getting molested.


That's one thing we can both agree on :P

But I'm strongly against the idea that there are no savage or civilised cultures, only different ones. I'm sorry. I know things could be worse, they could cannibalise their young, force them to participate in worse rituals or fight each other, all sorts of things.

But the thought of ten year olds being forced to chug semen makes me feel a bit ill I won't lie.

And despite opposition to the following view, from my own experience growing up I seriously doubt every kid going through this is enthusiastic.
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Re: Controversial Opinions

Unread postby PopTart » 4 December 2018, 20:34

Zoop wrote:
PopTart wrote:I think helping such people control or overcome their urges, rather than ostracising them in society, might actually lead to fewer children getting molested.


That's one thing we can both agree on :P

But I'm strongly against the idea that there are no savage or civilised cultures, only different ones. I'm sorry. I know things could be worse, they could cannibalise their young, force them to participate in worse rituals or fight each other, all sorts of things.

But the thought of ten year olds being forced to chug semen makes me feel a bit ill I won't lie.

And despite opposition to the following view, from my own experience growing up I seriously doubt every kid going through this is enthusiastic.

I get it, your thinking about those kids that might not want to participate, who might have other ideas, and might not be getting much choice in the matter. I can see how you'd want to protect them. ;)
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Re: Controversial Opinions

Unread postby erti » 4 December 2018, 20:43

i think women should rule the world, enslave men and only use them for breeding purposes. :lol:
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Re: Controversial Opinions

Unread postby PopTart » 4 December 2018, 20:45

erti wrote:i think women should rule the world, enslave men and only use them for breading purposes. :lol:

Well I do love bread, so why not? :lol:
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