COVID Jab

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COVID Jab

Unread postby FireFox » 13 September 2021, 19:39

Mmm on todays episode of what the hell is wrong with people.

So the other day was having a chat regarding the jab because I was asked if I had it already and also due the 2nd next month which I think was harmless enough to be asked (though still seemed somewhat strange), anyway then went on for an age saying they have chosen not to get it because they don't know what is in it :facepalm2:

There was a level of irony that if presented to us would have caused a fracture in spacetime because while almost being lectured on the lack of knowledge and their reasoning behind not having it (OK fair enough), they were doing this while smoking :confused:

Basically happy enough to chain smoke a petro-chemists worst nightmare but not touch the one thing that gives us hope of some normality, anyway more of the rant if anything.

Has anyone else had anything as moronic as that, it would be interesting to hear about them.
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Re: COVID Jab

Unread postby pozboro » 14 September 2021, 00:47

No. Pretty much everyone I have contact with is into making it mandatory for everyone.

I don't get what's not to love about the vaccine - my phone service got upped to 5G and doesn't cost a cent more AND my Microsoft products are quicker and more reliable. Even the dog seems to bite me less now. Best of all, it added to both length and girth PAINLESSLY and I'm due a sizeable payout from a Nigerian prince when I get a booster!

But seriously, I've had a hard time understanding why people are so resistant, especially those working in a healthcare setting. Yesterday I read that a hospital in the part of New York that isn't the Big crApple announced that come month's end they won't be offering maternity services due to so many resignations, including staff quitting because of mandatory vaccination! Makes my scalp itch just thinking about it.
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Re: COVID Jab

Unread postby Brenden » 14 September 2021, 02:09

The vaccines were tested for efficacy of protecting the vaccinated from illness, severe illness, and death. They were NOT tested for their efficacy of preventing transmission outright.

To prevent transmission they would need to achieve sterilising immunity — an extraordinarily tall feat for any vaccine.

This notion that taking these new vaccines is a matter of ‘protecting others’ and the increasing push for making it mandatory or pseudo-mandatory violate people’s human right to bodily integrity and it’s not really ‘based on the science’ as people with no scientific understanding whatsoever like to claim.

Of course, anyone who expresses anything at all critical or hesitant about the vaccines or the vaccination programs is labelled an “anti-vaxxer” and shouted down by people claiming to listen to scientists as if they’re a priestly caste who translate for us the divine language of Science.

Meanwhile, 13 TOP EXPERTS of vaccination and immunisation in the United Kingdom advise against vaccinating 12-15 year olds citing only marginal benefit, but the Government pushes ahead with it to appease the rabid pro-vaccine (pseudo)liberals.
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Re: COVID Jab

Unread postby Eryx » 14 September 2021, 02:18

Brenden, you went off the deep end.

On another note, I'm happy at least for this I can be proud of Brazil, we're very positive towards vaccination which enabled us to beat measles, polio faster than many developing countries. Unfortunately, measles came back recently with the spread of the anti-vaxxer movement in big city centers, which is really dumb, but I don't really care about these people.

I used to be worried about those with weak immune systems being affected because of anti-vaxxers, but honestly, nowadays I kind of consider it collateral damage and I hope they (anti-vaxxers, not immunocompromised people) just die and annihilate their own movement.
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Re: COVID Jab

Unread postby Brenden » 14 September 2021, 03:21

Eryx wrote:Brenden, you went off the deep end.

No, I read the actual studies and listen to actual experts who aren’t being expedient or political.

I literally downloaded Pfizer-BioNTech’s results papers as soon as they were published and got vaccinated as soon as I possibly could.
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Re: COVID Jab

Unread postby Eos » 14 September 2021, 06:05

I honestly don't really care about all the things that make people doubtful about the vaccines. There has already too many people that died for the irresponsibility of others, I will do what I must to protect the one I love. Maybe the vaccine isn't perfect, but I think the situation is too important that they couldn't give us something defective. I mean it could wipe the entire human race. They are not that stupid.
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Re: COVID Jab

Unread postby Marmaduke » 14 September 2021, 06:13

No vaccine will ever achieve a 100% roll-out, I don’t much see the need to give thought to an inevitability anymore.

We’re around 90% of the population vaccinated and that appears to be our ceiling. We’ve hit it. That’s excellent.

I’ll take excellent and be happy about it.
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Re: COVID Jab

Unread postby PopTart » 14 September 2021, 07:59

I work with several people who haven't got the vaccine for different reasons.

A young 21 year old welsh guy, who simply feels it hasn't been out long enough to have a definitive idea of possible side effects (Can't say I agree but he is entitled to his opinion and I respect that)

A nearly 30 year old, english girl who is pregnant and after asking her midwife if she should get the vaccine and the midwife telling her, she wasn't allowed to give advice (likely for legal reasons) she opted not to get it.

There are others, one has allergic reactions etc.

There are alot of reasons, some well rationalised and others that come from the gut, for why someone doesn't get vaccinated.

As one of those extremely vulnerable people, I'm happy enough that I have got the vaccine and I'm comfortable enough being around those that haven't.

We should perhaps, stop beating eachother over the head needlessly and get one with our lives.
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Re: COVID Jab

Unread postby Brenden » 14 September 2021, 10:57

Anyone who cares about reducing vaccine hesitancy (especially in the future when we'll be faced with a much worse pandemic) should care about why people are hesitant, because that's how you effectively talk to them and hopefully convince them. Not by invoking science as if it is a creed with a single scripture only readable by a priestly caste. And most of all not by calling them uncaring or stupid or gleefully celebrating their deaths.

Lessons really must be learned if the human species is to survive beyond this century.
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Re: COVID Jab

Unread postby Severelius » 14 September 2021, 11:11

Brenden wrote:Anyone who cares about reducing vaccine hesitancy (especially in the future when we'll be faced with a much worse pandemic) should care about why people are hesitant, because that's how you effectively talk to them and hopefully convince them. Not by invoking science as if it is a creed with a single scripture only readable by a priestly caste. And most of all not by calling them uncaring or stupid or gleefully celebrating their deaths.

Lessons really must be learned if the human species is to survive beyond this century.

Okay but it's really hard to not call them stupid when the "I won't take the vaccine because I don't know what's in it" crowd are happily chugging medicine made for horses and livestock, or stuff like Betadine which is literally toxic when ingested.
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Re: COVID Jab

Unread postby PopTart » 14 September 2021, 11:57

Severelius wrote:
Brenden wrote:Anyone who cares about reducing vaccine hesitancy (especially in the future when we'll be faced with a much worse pandemic) should care about why people are hesitant, because that's how you effectively talk to them and hopefully convince them. Not by invoking science as if it is a creed with a single scripture only readable by a priestly caste. And most of all not by calling them uncaring or stupid or gleefully celebrating their deaths.

Lessons really must be learned if the human species is to survive beyond this century.

Okay but it's really hard to not call them stupid when the "I won't take the vaccine because I don't know what's in it" crowd are happily chugging medicine made for horses and livestock, or stuff like Betadine which is literally toxic when ingested.

Mercury is also toxic, but I still eat Tuna fish.

I used to smoke like a chimney and have the ruined lungs to attest to that fact, but that didn't mean I would have gladly supped on some arsenic. Which is what I was doing when I smoked. I was even tangentially aware of that fact, yet I smoked anyway.

People don't always make rational choices. Any people. The reasoning might be wrong or faulty, but its usually there. If you take the time to investigate and show some humility and respect, you might find you can understand their position. Maybe then, as Brenden suggests, you might be able to draw them to the truth a little easier.
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Re: COVID Jab

Unread postby Eryx » 14 September 2021, 12:30

Brenden wrote:Anyone who cares about reducing vaccine hesitancy (especially in the future when we'll be faced with a much worse pandemic) should care about why people are hesitant, because that's how you effectively talk to them and hopefully convince them. Not by invoking science as if it is a creed with a single scripture only readable by a priestly caste. And most of all not by calling them uncaring or stupid or gleefully celebrating their deaths.

Lessons really must be learned if the human species is to survive beyond this century.
I agree, but I'm not around people like that and I can't talk to them about it, so it's not like I'm actively calling them stupid to their faces, I'm talking about them as a group. I'd probably do the best I could to convince them through good conversation if I met one of them.
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Re: COVID Jab

Unread postby Brenden » 14 September 2021, 14:09

Eryx wrote:
Brenden wrote:Anyone who cares about reducing vaccine hesitancy (especially in the future when we'll be faced with a much worse pandemic) should care about why people are hesitant, because that's how you effectively talk to them and hopefully convince them. Not by invoking science as if it is a creed with a single scripture only readable by a priestly caste. And most of all not by calling them uncaring or stupid or gleefully celebrating their deaths.

Lessons really must be learned if the human species is to survive beyond this century.

I agree, but I'm not around people like that and I can't talk to them about it, so it's not like I'm actively calling them stupid to their faces, I'm talking about them as a group. I'd probably do the best I could to convince them through good conversation if I met one of them.

When you talk to such people that way "as a group" you're actually likely to galvanise their thinking and actually push them into the group you oppose and wrongly assume they're already in.

Let's say there's `Group A who believe A and Group B who believe B and some people we'll label as Cs who don't fully believe A or B. If some members of Group A start to denigrate the Cs and lump them together with Group B, then they'll be much, much more likely to drift away from thinking A, since it's associated with Group A who is denigrating them, and toward thinking B, both out of more exposure to Group B and out of not associating B with hostility.

This is exactly why Hillary Clinton's "basket of deplorables" remark was basically the death knell of her presidential aspirations. The comment itself took the online behaviour and language of her supports, which was directed not only at staunch Trump supporters but also people who were often on the fence or only facetiously supporting Trump, and made it official campaign and candidate rhetoric. She and her team probably thought they were talking very specifically about a group of people, but that's not what the masses who'd been facing denigration from her supporters online heard.
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Re: COVID Jab

Unread postby pozboro » 14 September 2021, 18:26

Brenden wrote:Lessons really must be learned if the human species is to survive beyond this century.


yeah, good luck with that

edit: I mean really, does anyone think they can change people's minds at this point, especially when folks react on an emotional level to whatever issue of the day we're dealing with? Just look at the post-9/11 invasion of Iraq: people wanted blood and Saddam was their proxy of choice.

How many posters here support vaccine mandates? All I can say is I'm not convinced as I see positives and negatives. Funny thing is, those who are most resistant today to Covid mitigation are the same crowd who were only too eager to quarantine all gay men in the 80s and 90s. Why? Because they were afraid they or their kids might get AIDS from a doorknob or toilet seat. This is my second rodeo and both have left me with a taste of dirt and plenty of bruises.
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Re: COVID Jab

Unread postby Derek » 15 September 2021, 00:56

Brenden wrote:This is exactly why Hillary Clinton's "basket of deplorables" remark was basically the death knell of her presidential aspirations.

I wonder why this only works one-way.
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Re: COVID Jab

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 15 September 2021, 01:25

Derek wrote:
Brenden wrote:This is exactly why Hillary Clinton's "basket of deplorables" remark was basically the death knell of her presidential aspirations.

I wonder why this only works one-way.

Because they’re snowflak…wait.
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Re: COVID Jab

Unread postby PopTart » 15 September 2021, 07:57

Derek wrote:
Brenden wrote:This is exactly why Hillary Clinton's "basket of deplorables" remark was basically the death knell of her presidential aspirations.

I wonder why this only works one-way.

It doesn't, the principle is the same.

But I guess if you can't beat them. Join them.

pozboro wrote:
Brenden wrote:Lessons really must be learned if the human species is to survive beyond this century.


yeah, good luck with that

edit: I mean really, does anyone think they can change people's minds at this point, especially when folks react on an emotional level to whatever issue of the day we're dealing with? Just look at the post-9/11 invasion of Iraq: people wanted blood and Saddam was their proxy of choice.

How many posters here support vaccine mandates? All I can say is I'm not convinced as I see positives and negatives. Funny thing is, those who are most resistant today to Covid mitigation are the same crowd who were only too eager to quarantine all gay men in the 80s and 90s. Why? Because they were afraid they or their kids might get AIDS from a doorknob or toilet seat. This is my second rodeo and both have left me with a taste of dirt and plenty of bruises.
and yet people have changed regarding HIV/Aids. No longer do people advocate for isolating those that have it, social ostracism is at an all time low. People have changed.

They have changed thanks to being better educated and better informed.

The problem today is with the lack of true credible information and the prevelance of misinformation.

All of which can be laid squarely at the feet of big tech and bad actors that use it for bad purposes. On both sides of the political divide.
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Re: COVID Jab

Unread postby pozboro » 15 September 2021, 08:14

PopTart wrote:and yet people have changed regarding HIV/Aids. No longer do people advocate for isolating those that have it, social ostracism is at an all time low. People have changed.

They have changed thanks to being better educated and better informed.

The problem today is with the lack of true credible information and the prevelance of misinformation.

All of which can be laid squarely at the feet of big tech and bad actors that use it for bad purposes. On both sides of the political divide.


yeah, maybe after 40 years some have changed their attitude but there are still laws criminalizing HIV on the books in many states (with Missouri the most aggressive in charging). Pretty much anyway I look at it, I don't have another 40 years to wait for people to pull their communal head out, especially when it comes to something as colossal as climate change. As for Covid, barring any amazingly awful mutation, I'm betting it will become manageable long before views change on something like vaccination though clearly some have given in during the recent wave.

People used to complain about tabloids like the National Enquirer but did they continue to print when readers stopped buying?

While tech is doing an awful lot wrong with social media, I don't think they are only to blame. People who repost shit they know is shit can carry some of that load as well. And if they weren't reading and reacting to it, the algorithms wouldn't be as likely to feed it to them. But yeah, as long as there's money to be made, tech companies are going to do what works for shareholders even at the detriment of users. After all, the saps keep coming back for more.
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Re: COVID Jab

Unread postby PopTart » 15 September 2021, 08:38

pozboro wrote:
PopTart wrote:and yet people have changed regarding HIV/Aids. No longer do people advocate for isolating those that have it, social ostracism is at an all time low. People have changed.

They have changed thanks to being better educated and better informed.

The problem today is with the lack of true credible information and the prevelance of misinformation.

All of which can be laid squarely at the feet of big tech and bad actors that use it for bad purposes. On both sides of the political divide.


yeah, maybe after 40 years some have changed their attitude but there are still laws criminalizing HIV on the books in many states (with Missouri the most aggressive in charging). Pretty much anyway I look at it, I don't have another 40 years to wait for people to pull their communal head out, especially when it comes to something as colossal as climate change. As for Covid, barring any amazingly awful mutation, I'm betting it will become manageable long before views change on something like vaccination though clearly some have given in during the recent wave.

People used to complain about tabloids like the National Enquirer but did they continue to print when readers stopped buying?

While tech is doing an awful lot wrong with social media, I don't think they are only to blame. People who repost shit they know is shit can carry some of that load as well. And if they weren't reading and reacting to it, the algorithms wouldn't be as likely to feed it to them. But yeah, as long as there's money to be made, tech companies are going to do what works for shareholders even at the detriment of users. After all, the saps keep coming back for more.
Some have changed? The vast majority have changed. There are still laws within the British legal system, that dictate that all beached whales and sturgeons, are the property of the queen and should be delivered unto her. This is a 700 year old law. You know how often it's applied? Yeah, you guessed it. Never.

Things have changed. If what you want to change, is human nature, then sure thing. You're gonna be waiting a loooong time. People are always going to be people, who react with fear and hostility towards the unknown. That is never changing. As long as people are.. people. That will remain the same.

As to the comparison between the old forms of media and modern tech media, no, it's not the same. It's not in the same league. It's not even playing the same game. It's on a whole other level. Some people think we will adapt to the peculiarities of propoganda from digital mediums, in the same way we adapted to those that arose with the printing press (often coasting over the fact it took several bloody centuries of upheaval and turmoil to finally come out the other end of that adjustment and we were incredibly lucky to do so, with a poltiical and social system that valued individual liberty and freedom, because that was far from guaranteed.)

But we wont adapt in the same way (god forbid) we can already see how it is being used to mainupulate peoples behaviour as it completely up ends the way we interact with eachother, with ideas and with information.

So yeah, people take a bad idea they read on twitter, and they run with it. That's people being people. That's precisely what people have always done and in the past, we've been able to counter it. Big tech and the mediums via which it propogates awful ideas and terrible ways of thinking, is largely to blame and it is slowly depriving us of means by which to counter such societal shifts, indeed, it draws us all into it, without our even realising. It's insidious.

It's like drugs. Who do you blame. The addict or the manufacturers and those pushing it?
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Re: COVID Jab

Unread postby Brenden » 15 September 2021, 11:09

Derek wrote:
Brenden wrote:This is exactly why Hillary Clinton's "basket of deplorables" remark was basically the death knell of her presidential aspirations.

I wonder why this only works one-way.

It doesn’t. Look at Mitt Romney.

It just tends to be that that side is more savvy and sneaky and can often hide that they’re working for the wealthy/elites behind well-crafted rhetoric that resonates with their base and the middle.
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