Do you think people are born gay?

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Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postby gavrilushka » 2 July 2014, 21:17

York wrote:i disagree with you. It often looks like an intellectual pose when someone criticize Freud's without sufficient knowledge about his works. It is not about you it's about modish tendence
But i must admit that he has methodical flaws. And some facts about him, and his own confessions, giv the way for the scepticism. But most of his ideas is a very important and actual.
Can you show me scientific reason of your scepticism about Freud's doctrine

Because it's Freud? They've denounced basically everything he's said in psychology. He's not a scientist - he did no systematic testing for example. All of his theories are philosophies. He's no different to Nietzsche or any philosopher for that matter.

If you want to base your ideas of sexuality on any 'evidence' for that matter, you're better off with Kinsey whose life's work was understanding sex and sexuality unlike Freud who basically stirred the pot and tried to cast everyone off as having an Oedipus complex.
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Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postby 1day » 14 February 2015, 16:26

Perhaps a different twist on this topic, Paul Bloom once asked in one of his lectures...

"It can’t be entirely genetic. We know some experience, possibly pre-natal, explains it. It’s a huge puzzle.
Exclusive homosexuality is an evolutionary mystery. It doesn’t follow a biological adaptation. The puzzle is not why men have sex with men. The puzzle is why there are men who don’t want to have sex with women (and similarly why are there women who don't want to have sex with men). From an evolutionary standpoint, you would think that the genes that give rise to such behavior would be weeded out because creatures with that behavior don’t have offspring…and that makes it such a puzzle."

What do you think?

For reference:
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Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postby RattleTheCages » 14 February 2015, 21:37

He's on the right track for sure. Purely genetic traits are usually also known as "diseases" or "disorders". That is, as a result of meiosis or the pattern of DNA expression (replication, transcription, or translation), an individual fundamentally cannot produce a functional protein or group of proteins. Think Sickle Cell Anemia, or Huntington's and Tay-Sachs. This is all that DNA is good for, as far as I know.

Homosexuality, not being directly dependent on one protein or a group of proteins, is then at least polygenic. It takes the expression processes of many genes to make the proteins necessary to accomplish the tasks (exclusively) attributed to homosexuals. This isn't even factoring in the dynamics of predisposition and the role of one's external environment....

Here's the big problem then: how does one scientifically define a homosexual? What verifiable and falsifiable chemical and biological mechanisms are involved in the expression of sexuality in general? We don't even experimentally know the extent of the role biology and chemistry plays in behavior, psychology, and sexuality. These are emerging areas of study for sure, but this is also what you get when basic research in the sciences is neglected, especially in the field of neuroscience.

Honestly, it would likely take volumes to accurately describe the process of the expression of homosexuality, and we don't know how to fill those volumes. (Hell, it takes an entire college course to cover metabolism, a relatively simple biochemical process!)

So when people ask if you're born gay, it's the wrong question. The better question, the one that addresses what people really want to know when they ask such a thing, is: are you actively choosing to not be attracted to, have physiological responses for, fantasize about, or engage in sexual activity with, an individual of your opposing sex? Can you be held responsible for the active expression of your non-normative sexuality?

Historically, the answer has been yes according to popular law and social culture. In the future, I think science will show that sexuality can be completely manipulated, that it is malleable if you know the material details of the expression of sexuality. Right now, the only answer we can reliably give is: you have little control over anything in your life, and that includes whatever sexuality you happen to be.
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Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postby Maryme » 15 February 2015, 13:30

I've understood it only in my 17...
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Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postby RedRobyn » 18 February 2015, 01:56

I don't really think that people are actually born gay. I do believe that people are a product of their environments and experiences. Some people just aren't attracted to the opposite sex and that's just how it is. There isn't a be all end all definition of homosexuality at all. Every human being is born different and able to make their own choices. As Kinsey pointed out, sexuality is really a continuum instead of a static "gay or not gay," and that in itself is huge regarding thus issue.

For me, I happen to be interested in both men and women, and I always have been. I haven't been able to embrace it because I was taught that it was wrong by family and church, so I just believed it. But now I'm making my own decisions and I've accepted who I am.
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Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postby maison » 27 February 2015, 03:01

I don't believe is genetic. Genetics can only dictate physical elements of yourself and not emotional elements. Since sexual orientation is an emotiaonal element of one's self it can not be caused by ones genes, but I also disagree about enviromental factors. Point in case, you are gay due to enviromental factor, this would indicate that everyone or most of the people in the same enviroment would most likely result to be gay.

In my opinion, I believe that sexual orientation is developed by your believes and ideas when you are growing up, which in turn defines who you are as a person. I believe this is the reason why many people can be from the same genetic pool as well as be from the same enviroment and the result will still be people with different sexual orientaions, as no one person haves the same ideas and believes as someone else.
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Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postby René » 27 February 2015, 13:09

maison wrote:I don't believe is genetic. Genetics can only dictate physical elements of yourself and not emotional elements.

The potential for many affective (emotional/mood) disorders is genetically inherited, and monozygotic ("identical") twins are way more likely to share the same sexual orientation than dizygotic (fraternal) twins.

The presence of a genetic component is well-established.
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Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postby maison » 28 February 2015, 01:16

emotional/mood disorders are a result of chemical inbalance in the brain chemistry that can be targeted. as per the monozygotic twins they tend to have the same ideas and believes due to the close relationship that they share from the begining, where they always share the same views like a mirror effect. Even if one disagrees with something, the other twin is more likely to change his views to that of the more dominant twin.

If genetic where the case than monozygotic twins would always share the same sexual orientation.

OMG, I realized that I disagreed with the admin after I submitted the post. :runaway:
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Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postby René » 28 February 2015, 03:52

maison wrote:emotional/mood disorders are a result of chemical inbalance in the brain chemistry that can be targeted. as per the monozygotic twins they tend to have the same ideas and believes due to the close relationship that they share from the begining, where they always share the same views like a mirror effect. Even if one disagrees with something, the other twin is more likely to change his views to that of the more dominant twin.

If genetic where the case than monozygotic twins would always share the same sexual orientation.

OMG, I realized that I disagreed with the admin after I submitted the post. :runaway:

En deze admin is nog Nederlands ook. ;)

The authors of Wikipedia wrote:A number of twin studies have attempted to compare the relative importance of genetics and environment in the determination of sexual orientation. In a 1991 study, Bailey and Pillard found that 52% of monozygotic (MZ) brothers and 22% of the dizygotic (DZ) twins were concordant for homosexuality.[4] 'MZ' indicates identical twins with the same sets of genes and 'DZ' indicates fraternal twins where genes are mixed to an extent similar to that of non-twin siblings. In 2000 Bailey, Dunne and Martin studied a larger sample of 4,901 Australian twins but reported less than half the level of concordance.[5] They found 20% concordance in the male identical or MZ twins and 24% concordance for the female identical or MZ twins. Self reported zygosity, sexual attraction, fantasy and behaviours were assessed by questionnaire and zygosity was serologically checked when in doubt. A meta-study by Hershberger (2001)[6] compares the results of eight different twin studies: among those, all but two showed MZ twins having much higher concordance of sexual orientation than DZ twins, suggesting a non-negligible genetic component.

Bearman and Brückner (2002) criticized early studies of concentrating on small, select samples[7] and non-representative selection of their subjects.[8] They studied 289 pairs of identical twins (monozygotic or from one fertilized egg) and 495 pairs of fraternal twins (dizygotic or from two fertilized eggs) and found concordance rates for same-sex attraction of only 7.7% for male identical twins and 5.3% for females, a pattern which they say "does not suggest genetic influence independent of social context."[7]

A 2010 study of all adult twins in Sweden (more than 7,600 twins)[9] found that same-sex behavior was explained by both heritable factors and individual-specific environmental sources (such as prenatal environment, experience with illness and trauma, as well as peer groups, and sexual experiences), while influences of shared-environment variables such as familial environment and societal attitudes had a weaker, but significant effect. Women showed a statistically non-significant trend to weaker influence of hereditary effects, while men showed no effect of shared environmental effects. The use of all adult twins in Sweden was designed to address the criticism of volunteer studies, in which a potential bias towards participation by gay twins may influence the results;

Biometric modeling revealed that, in men, genetic effects explained .34–.39 of the variance [of sexual orientation], the shared environment .00, and the individual-specific environment .61–.66 of the variance. Corresponding estimates among women were .18–.19 for genetic factors, .16–.17 for shared environmental, and .64–.66 for unique environmental factors. Although wide confidence intervals suggest cautious interpretation, the results are consistent with moderate, primarily genetic, familial effects, and moderate to large effects of the nonshared environment (social and biological) on same-sex sexual behavior.[9]


Just because genetics plays into it doesn't mean MZ twins would always be exactly the same. There's a genetic component to schizophrenia too; that doesn't mean you can't have one MZ twin with schizophrenia and another without. Genetic and environmental influences both play a major role.
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Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postby maison » 28 February 2015, 09:21

I'm only visiting at the moment.

I really don't believe that interest are inherit, but are more likely developed like someones taste in music and food. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that you become gay, but more likely your attraction to the same or different gender is part of a persons development as you become older. To use the term become gay means that you were not gay to beging with, but later in life you change. In my believe, everyone starts in a neutral state of sexual orientation that is later shaped by your believes and ideas. The idea that there is a gene that defines you really offend me as I would be an indication that the is something genetically wrong with someone due to their sexual orientation. Don't get me wrong Rene, I do respect your point of view, but I tend to disagree in the idea that sexual orientation is defined by a gene. I also disagree in the enviromental point of view because it would indicate that only in the right(or wrong to a few) conditions would result on a persons sexual orientation to be attracted to the same gender.

I know this is a little of topic, but also to indicate the the amount of same sex attraction is in a incline is also wrong, as the amount in my opinion is about the same, but because of lack of social acceptance most people stayed in the closet as to not be alianated by the friends or peers.
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Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postby René » 28 February 2015, 13:32

So you agree that it is not solely caused by a gene, and that it is not solely caused by the environment.

Then surely you must agree that it is caused by a combination of genetic and environmental influences, as found in the research I quoted?

maison wrote:The idea that there is a gene that defines you really offend me as I would be an indication that the is something genetically wrong with someone due to their sexual orientation.

Just because something has a genetic influence or cause doesn't make it wrong. There's a large genetic influence on things like intelligence, athletic ability, musical ability, etc., as well.

Your genes don't define who you are. They're just a big influence, and that's inevitable. There's nothing wrong with that. :)
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Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 28 February 2015, 19:32

René wrote:
maison wrote:The idea that there is a gene that defines you really offend me as I would be an indication that the is something genetically wrong with someone due to their sexual orientation.

Just because something has a genetic influence or cause doesn't make it wrong. There's a large genetic influence on things like intelligence, athletic ability, musical ability, etc., as well.

Your genes don't define who you are. They're just a big influence, and that's inevitable. There's nothing wrong with that. :)

I've noticed this pattern of thinking quite a lot. People will strongly dismiss assertions mostly on the basis that they dislike their implications, whether real or imagined, rather than because they track reality.
Blow: "Nowadays even Liam can release an album of his screechy vocals and it'll probably go #1..."
Ramzus: I can admit that I'm horny just about 24/7
homomorphism: I used to not think your name was deshay and that Erick was just being racist
Hunter: sometimes I think I was literally born to be a pornstar
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Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postby Paragon » 1 March 2015, 14:35

poolerboy0077 wrote:I've noticed this pattern of thinking quite a lot. People will strongly dismiss assertions mostly on the basis that they dislike their implications, whether real or imagined, rather than because they track reality.

My dad rejects the entire theory of evolution because he can't fathom ancestry from primates and therefore humans must have been created separately. Which is dumb.

René wrote:Your genes don't define who you are. They're just a big influence, and that's inevitable. There's nothing wrong with that. :)

Epigenetics is now my go-to explanation whenever someone asks me about the topic.
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Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postby RattleTheCages » 1 March 2015, 19:42

That differential in factors influencing female and male sexuality is interesting, and seems to track with research on the flexibility of human sexuality in general. On average, female sexuality is more influenced by social dynamics and environment, whereas male sexuality is more rigid and highly specific. Greater rates of female bisexuality or behavior would seem to support this.

------

Christ, okay I think it's time for another :english: moment....

I think what gets (understandably) lost in discussions about genetic influence, and I see this a lot, is that the actual genes you have are just one aspect of "genetic influence" on x, y, z, etc.

Around that physical DNA structure of directional & sequential base pairs are many other biological processes that regulate and interact with the expression of the genes encoded by the structure.

Here are two (highly simplified) depictions of gene expression:

ch4VisualSynthesisDNAmap.jpg


GeneExpressionList.jpg


Those proteins that are made by the expression of your genes are then transported throughout your body to perform literally millions of different and highly specific jobs. (See http://lmgtfy.com/?q=proteins for info on that.)

What we then observe IRL, with phenotype as well as with a person's behavior, personality, emotions, SEXUALITY, etc., are the products of the organized, synchronized behavior of QUINTILLIONS of proteins working throughout your body.

Point being, when scientists and other genomic professionals speak about "genetic influence", they're likely referring to this HUGE, broad constellation of factors that also includes the relatively newly-discovered contributions of Epigenetics and MicroRNA (MiRNA) to the regulation and expression of your genes.

......you know I had a whole bunch of other stuff I was gonna go into about other contributing factors like meiosis, pre-natal environments, epi-/genetic expression within an individual's environment and how that can affect expression and therefore observable and measurable traits, developmental processes and how time itself is a factor in expression and therefore sexuality, etc.
and I was gonna arrange them chronologically in a simple infograph and all this shit....but I've spent over 1.5 hours editing and arranging this post so far and I have little evidence that anyone actually reads or cares about what I have to say so I'm gonna just stop now.
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Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postby René » 1 March 2015, 20:06

RattleTheCages wrote:and I was gonna arrange them chronologically in a simple infograph and all this shit....but I've spent over 1.5 hours editing and arranging this post so far and I have little evidence that anyone actually reads or cares about what I have to say so I'm gonna just stop now.

I read, care about and appreciate what you have to say, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. :)
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Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 1 March 2015, 20:23

You gays just love making excuses for your deviate lifestyle choices.
Blow: "Nowadays even Liam can release an album of his screechy vocals and it'll probably go #1..."
Ramzus: I can admit that I'm horny just about 24/7
homomorphism: I used to not think your name was deshay and that Erick was just being racist
Hunter: sometimes I think I was literally born to be a pornstar
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Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postby Quoewlh » 3 March 2015, 16:58

Holy dayum, there is a lot of interesting stuff in this thread. I have been wondering about this question for a long time myself and most answers I found were either very vague or were simply ideas. It is nice to finally see explanations that actually make a lot of sense :D
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Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 4 March 2015, 17:42

Presidential contender Ben Carson argues that homosexuality is a choice because of the gay sex that goes on in prisons: https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/pres ... 32512.html
Blow: "Nowadays even Liam can release an album of his screechy vocals and it'll probably go #1..."
Ramzus: I can admit that I'm horny just about 24/7
homomorphism: I used to not think your name was deshay and that Erick was just being racist
Hunter: sometimes I think I was literally born to be a pornstar
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Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postby Jacketh » 4 March 2015, 22:20

poolerboy0077 wrote:Presidential contender Ben Carson argues that homosexuality is a choice because of the gay sex that goes on in prisons: https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/pres ... 32512.html


Gay sex is that powerful of an influence, huh?

Pretty interesting read this thread.
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