Idea of LGBT State and Queer nation creation

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Re: Idea of LGBT Kingdom and Queer nationalism creation

Unread postby PopTart » 2 October 2021, 06:55

Derek wrote:It's a wonder that your country has spent over a hundred years invading Afghanistan and it still hasn't worked out.

He deigns to speak with me?!

Forsooth, I am honoured. Even if it is to throw shade.

The great game? Was never about Afghanistan. It was a strip of land between two competing goliaths of the times. Neither of which had any vested interest in the culture, lifestyles or wellbeing of the people who called it home.

As I said, I'm no advocate for interventionism. I was strongly opposed to Iraq and Afghanistan.

However, given the changes that 20 years of occupation invoked, I can only regard it as, cruel and unusual to give a people a semblance of hope and glimpse of a positive alternative to regressivism, only to snatch it away for political point scoring at home. But I guess Americans have always been prone to only seeing things from their own perspective.
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Re: Idea of LGBT State and Queer nation creation

Unread postby Derek » 2 October 2021, 16:06

What "hope" was there when the regime instantly collapsed without foreign powers holding it up? What kind of revisionist history tells us the Taliban wasn't created in response to constant interference? It was never in our power to offer them an alternative to anything, even if that was our intention. Maybe they'll be able to work it out for themselves if they manage to go a few generations without being invaded, colonized, or used as a proxy between superpowers.
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Re: Idea of LGBT State and Queer nation creation

Unread postby PopTart » 2 October 2021, 16:36

Yeah, that might well be the case and it might not. Which was exactly my position prior to intervention by the US and UK. Not our place to go toppling regimes on the other side of the world, who pose little long term threat to our way of life. But you know, Americans got shaken by acts of terrorism and some one had to pay and ofcourse we joined you in that misadventure.

But having taken the decision to intervene, where it wasn't welcome, at great cost in human life, those people who have enjoyed 20 years of blossoming liberty, some of whom have known nothing but, are now to be left to fend for themselves, because you people can't be bothered to pick up the pieces of your own interventionism? Because it is no longer desirable or politik to remain.

Our respective governments have had their fun, made their statements and now you're happy to wash your hands of it.

I would suggest, our nations have a responsibility to follow through on what we started, no matter how distasteful we now might find it, perhaps then we might learn NOT to run in half cocked without a plan, because someone rattled our cages.

In Afghanistan atleast, the people had begun to realise the benefits to an alternative way of life. Women walked around Kabul without Hijabs, went shopping, could get an education.

The majority now live in fear beneath a repressive regime. One that might have been relegated to the annals of history, had we stayed the course, long enough for the cultural changes to take root and the regressive element to lose any and all appeal in the long term. Time would have dealt with the Taliban. Better than any army could.

And yes, in the last few years, incidents of violence and bloodshed had been at an all time low.
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Re: Idea of LGBT State and Queer nation creation

Unread postby Derek » 2 October 2021, 16:51

I can't wrap my head around a justification for interventionism that ignores both the intentions and the results of that interventionism. Afghanistan is what we made it. It's cruel and insanely obstinate to suggest the answer is doubling down and "following through". We never learn and we never will.
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Re: Idea of LGBT State and Queer nation creation

Unread postby PopTart » 2 October 2021, 16:58

It is precisely because the intervention had muddy purposes, that it was objectionable to begin with. The US and by extension, the UK, had inconsistent intentions going in.

Two consecutive US presidents spoke of nation building, while your most recent president has flipped back and forth between rhetoric about nation building, when it was politically expedient, to the whole affair having never been about nation building, when that was expedient. :shrug:

The intention going in, is neither here nor there. Because having gone in, regardless of the intent, the consequences are clear.

You fuck up, you make it right, you don't trash the place, offer a glimpse at aj alternative and then walk away saying, oops, my bad, we don't have the political will to actually put our money where our mouth has been.
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Re: Idea of LGBT State and Queer nation creation

Unread postby Derek » 2 October 2021, 17:24

The intention is crucially important. There's no other way to make sense of the United State's record of interference with other nations, which has so frequently resulted in destabilization, repression, and ethnic violence. I don't know why anyone would believe that this has somehow changed in the last few years and now our intervention is a good thing that will make things better for the people we wanted to exploit. It's devastating that people are still able to conclude that more interventionism is the answer.
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Re: Idea of LGBT State and Queer nation creation

Unread postby PopTart » 2 October 2021, 17:38

You really didn't read my first post on the subject at all, did you? It's like you pick the bits you wanted to take exception too, threw some shade at the UK's colonial past and kept running.

Here, let me quote it back for you.

PopTart wrote:Believe me when I say, I'm generally a non interventionist, but Aghanistan, was a changing nation during the last 20 years of allied occupation. I'm usually the last to say that change can be effectively imposed by outside forces that such change must come from within a society, but just prior to allied abandonment, the way of life was changing for people in Afghanistan, women's liberties were increasing, homosexuality was less persecuted and more modern values were being expressed, without threat of legal consequence. Many Afghan spoke of the country becoming a demonstrably better place to live for everyone.


I am generally opposed to interventionism. American interventionism in particular, because you people especially suck at it.

But there is no denying that genuine cultural change was occurring in urban areas of Afghanistan. Change facilitated and made possible by an interventionist force. This is irrefutable. This isn't some abstract argument.

Your ideological opposition to interventionism in general and your pessimistic attitudes towards, pretty much everything, don't really factor in when we are talking about people's lives.

Having gone in for the wrong reasons to start with, the only good to have come out of it, is now being trampled by the very people the Allies had claimed to be opposing, not because they won out against their enemies, or because their cause was more just, but because political leaders in the US and the people that endorse them, lacked the will to follow through.

You have doubled down on the not giving a fuck about the people's whose nations you are happy to kick over for, reasons.
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Re: Idea of LGBT Kingdom and Queer nationalism creation

Unread postby pozboro » 2 October 2021, 20:20

McTaggartfan wrote:
pozboro wrote:
McTaggartfan wrote:Rather like how I think the U.S. should just invade and take over Canada.


wow - someone has a really low opinion of Canadians and their right to self-determination

I've got no problem if Canada wants to hold a referendum and voters support a merger - the voters in the US could do the same

Invasions are ugly. Or did you miss Afghanistan and Iraq? Syria? Libya? the Falkland Islands? (yeah, you might be too young to remember that in real time)


Lol

I don't seriously think we should invade Canada! In truth, I think most wars are unjustified, and especially when they're only for the accrual of territory.


Well, it's not just about territory, we could give Canadians freedom! Freedom from socialized medicine and freedom to fill all our vacant jobs - after all, most Canadians have a MAGA pleasing skin tone. And while we're at it, we could tax their wages to pay for the cost of the invasion. I'm sure we could easily relocate Canadian nurses to work in Covid wards for example. So there are other 'upsides' to a wonderful invasion of a friendly neighbor. Wow. I might actually be able to convince myself this is a fun freedom idea!

Then again, not. :-p
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Re: Idea of LGBT Kingdom and Queer nationalism creation

Unread postby pozboro » 2 October 2021, 20:23

McTaggartfan wrote:
McTaggartfan wrote:
pozboro wrote:
McTaggartfan wrote:Rather like how I think the U.S. should just invade and take over Canada.


wow - someone has a really low opinion of Canadians and their right to self-determination

I've got no problem if Canada wants to hold a referendum and voters support a merger - the voters in the US could do the same

Invasions are ugly. Or did you miss Afghanistan and Iraq? Syria? Libya? the Falkland Islands? (yeah, you might be too young to remember that in real time)


Also, age need not have much to do with one's crystalized intelligence, or stores of accumulated knowledge. I'm quite well aware of the United States' military history.


Though I will admit to not knowing about whatever you're referring to in Libya.


Why Benghazi of course! You know, Hillary's secret invasion. But yeah, guess that was a bit of overreach though hasn't someone sent troops in there? Russia, Turkey, Italy? Someone? Anyone?
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Re: Idea of LGBT Kingdom and Queer nationalism creation

Unread postby pozboro » 2 October 2021, 20:47

PopTart wrote:
pozboro wrote:Invasions are ugly. Or did you miss Afghanistan and Iraq? Syria? Libya? the Falkland Islands? (yeah, you might be too young to remember that in real time)

Believe me when I say, I'm generally a non interventionist, but Aghanistan, was a changing nation during the last 20 years of allied occupation. I'm usually the last to say that change can be effectively imposed by outside forces, that such change must come from within a society, but just prior to allied abandonment, the way of life was changing for people in Afghanistan, women's liberties were increasing, homosexuality was less persecuted and more modern values were being expressed, without threat of legal consequence. Many Afghan spoke of the country becoming a demonstrably better place to live for everyone.

Now, the Taliban are slowly revoking the rights of women, gay people can once more be lawfully executed in the name of Allah and being atheist is a capital crime once more.

I honestly believe that another 20 years, might have seen a meaningful long term change in cultural attitudes, such that any attempt by the Taliban would have been met with stiffer resistance.

I still believe that Iraq was a disaster, Saddams brutality was all that kept the sectarian violence that has been endemic of the region, from tearing the nation and its people apart. When the US and UK toppled the regime with no clear plan for what should take it's place, it's no wonder that Iraq and the surrounding region fell into chaos.

Assad, Saddam and the Taliban, are/were tyrannical people and organisations.


I'm of a real divided opinion on Afghanistan, the invasion, the occupation, the withdrawal. Seems I recall both that and Iraq were specifically laid out as not nation-building exercises. We were there to get those that perpetrated 9/11 (AF) or eliminate all those WMDs (IQ). Also, there was a hawkish notion of taking the fight somewhere else so that they wouldn't be attacking our homefront. At least those were some of the arguments in favor of such aggressions.

I wonder what would have happened in Germany or Japan if we'd just taken out Hitler and Tojo (or his successor Koiso).

Can such invasions ever work without some concerted effort at nation-building?

But alas, after 20 years in Afghanistan, the nation built crumbled in what? About a month? Maybe the Afghanis will start quietly organizing and decide they don't like their overlords. Or maybe they really do like the Caliphate and think Sharia is the only law needed. (Please note: I'm not saying I support those positions.)

I'm not sure tyranny can root out any religion. It might drive it undergrown and sure, some 'convert' to atheism, but I can't say I feel all that good about what's happening in Russia, Poland, or Hungary these days in terms of gay rights. There are also some questions about the rights of women as well though clearly under socialist ideology women were 'equal' citizens. Or was I mislead?

There just always seems to be this sentiment "We'll be back before Christmas" whenever the troops head off. Not sure if that's just a recurrent theme in fiction or if people really believe that when invading a place like Iraq.
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Re: Idea of LGBT State and Queer nation creation

Unread postby pozboro » 2 October 2021, 20:55

PopTart wrote:I would suggest, our nations have a responsibility to follow through on what we started, no matter how distasteful we now might find it, perhaps then we might learn NOT to run in half cocked without a plan, because someone rattled our cages.

In Afghanistan atleast, the people had begun to realise the benefits to an alternative way of life. Women walked around Kabul without Hijabs, went shopping, could get an education.


Absolutely agree though I have one question - were women really able to go out without hijabs? Or were you thinking burqas (and a male family member as escort)?
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Re: Idea of LGBT State and Queer nation creation

Unread postby pozboro » 2 October 2021, 20:59

PopTart wrote:we don't have the political will to actually put our money where our mouth has been.


as an aside, I have to wonder just how much of the current administrations desire to vacate was predicated on the planned reallocation of funds away from the military-industrial complex and towards Build Back Better and the other domestic priorities. I've not seen it laid out as such, just speculating.
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Re: Idea of LGBT State and Queer nation creation

Unread postby Derek » 2 October 2021, 21:39

PopTart wrote:You have doubled down on the not giving a fuck about the people's whose nations you are happy to kick over for, reasons.

Whose nations I'm happy to kick over? What the fuck makes you say that?

You say we lack the will to follow through. On what? What exactly do you think we were doing there? This boggles my mind. How you can you have so little concept of history that the notion of "following through" in Afghanistan doesn't cause you to flinch in horror? It should only come as a relief for everyone but a handful military industrialists that "following through" turned out to be impossible.

Our countries collectively have spent two hundred years invading Afghanistan. Two hundred years! Do you have any concept of causality? Why do you think Afghanistan is the way it is? How can you look at two hundred years of history and somehow - some fucking how - conclude that staying there even longer is the solution to anything? We're not there to fix things for the Afghan people! Jesus fucking Christ! We're there to loot its resources and secure our interests in the area. That's it. There's no room in functioning of our politics to allow anything else. We pull out because of "politik" - what the hell else do you think there is? Two hundred fucking years.

And the "good" to come out of it - women not wearing burqas in some neighborhoods of Kabul? If you'll recall there were similar advancements in Tehran under the Shah, another corrupt, unpopular, unsustainable regime that engendered a massive reactionary backlash that shapes the politics of the region to this day. I'm sorry for the Afghan people, but their civil liberty is not something we are capable of giving them. If we were, they would be able to sustain them outside occupation.

I'm not a pessimist at all. I believe advancements can be made in Afghanistan, but not while their course is being dictated by an amoral empire on the other side of the globe who could not give less of a fuck about their wellbeing. There was no moving forward until we left and I'm only sorry we didn't do it sooner. You don't put out a grease fire by throwing more grease at it.

There's an extremely incorrect definition of insanity that people sometimes quote. That it's doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Ignorance isn't an excuse for enabling these cycles of immiseration.
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Re: Idea of LGBT State and Queer nation creation

Unread postby pozboro » 2 October 2021, 21:54

May I ask, now that we've thoroughly hijacked the thread, what you see in Afghanistan's future if the empires stay the hell out?

edit: I'm not using that as a rhetorical device to counter any of your statements. I'm truly interested in your ideas on the way forward.
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Re: Idea of LGBT State and Queer nation creation

Unread postby Derek » 2 October 2021, 22:16

I imagine the Taliban will attempt to be cozy with Pakistan and localized NUF-style mujahideen fighting will break out in remote provinces. Beyond the short-term, I have no guesses. I doubt it will be good for anyone for a good long while.
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Re: Idea of LGBT Kingdom and Queer nationalism creation

Unread postby PopTart » 2 October 2021, 23:59

pozboro wrote:I'm of a real divided opinion on Afghanistan, the invasion, the occupation, the withdrawal. Seems I recall both that and Iraq were specifically laid out as not nation-building exercises. We were there to get those that perpetrated 9/11 (AF) or eliminate all those WMDs (IQ). Also, there was a hawkish notion of taking the fight somewhere else so that they wouldn't be attacking our homefront. At least those were some of the arguments in favor of such aggressions.
It depends on which prominent politicians your refering to. Two American presidents have stated an intent to nation build, or atleast expressed it as a necessity following the action to root out "extremism" the same presidents also stating that wasn't the reason for being there, often dependant on who they were talking to at the time and what the current political climate at home happened to be. Ofcourse what was political rhetoric and what was genuinely believed and understood, is up for debate.

Regardless, when you go into a country to effect regime change, whatever the reasons, one has a responsibility to put something, anything in place, rather than leave people to dig around in the rubble.

I can't think of anything more pointless and wasteful, than to have gone into foreign countries, toppled their governments, even if doing so, was for strategic, political, economical or ideological reasons and didn't put into place, some system of government, that could sustain the people who have been acculturated to the occupying forces mores and customs, to which the local people have become accustomed.


pozboro wrote:Can such invasions ever work without some concerted effort at nation-building?
I'd argue no. Which is why I oppose interventionism in the majority of cases. I was quite surprised to learn how readily large swathes of the Afghan population welcomed the culture of liberty afforded them in the absence of Taliban dogmatism.

pozboro wrote:But alas, after 20 years in Afghanistan, the nation built crumbled in what? About a month? Maybe the Afghanis will start quietly organizing and decide they don't like their overlords. Or maybe they really do like the Caliphate and think Sharia is the only law needed. (Please note: I'm not saying I support those positions.)
I do hope that some will go on to fight for the liberty they have grown accustomed too, but sadly, every day brings more reports 9f those brave enough to stand up for what they believe in, being made brutal examples of.

pozboro wrote:I'm not sure tyranny can root out any religion. It might drive it undergrown and sure, some 'convert' to atheism, but I can't say I feel all that good about what's happening in Russia, Poland, or Hungary these days in terms of gay rights. There are also some questions about the rights of women as well though clearly under socialist ideology women were 'equal' citizens. Or was I mislead?
Atheism is illegal under the Taliban, punishable by death. As is homosexuality. Women in Afghanistan, who had been, for the first time in centuries, been free to get an education, are having that right taken back under the resurgent Taliban, who originally swore they would respect the changes in rights for women, but instead, have been slowly and quietly reimposing restrictions on them.
pozboro wrote:There just always seems to be this sentiment "We'll be back before Christmas" whenever the troops head off. Not sure if that's just a recurrent theme in fiction or if people really believe that when invading a place like Iraq.
I think that's the attitude of some politicians, who still regard the world as a playground for international military adventurism. And of people who vote for those politicians.
Last edited by PopTart on 3 October 2021, 00:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Idea of LGBT State and Queer nation creation

Unread postby PopTart » 3 October 2021, 00:01

pozboro wrote:
PopTart wrote:I would suggest, our nations have a responsibility to follow through on what we started, no matter how distasteful we now might find it, perhaps then we might learn NOT to run in half cocked without a plan, because someone rattled our cages.

In Afghanistan atleast, the people had begun to realise the benefits to an alternative way of life. Women walked around Kabul without Hijabs, went shopping, could get an education.


Absolutely agree though I have one question - were women really able to go out without hijabs? Or were you thinking burqas (and a male family member as escort)?
Yes, female refugees who have arrived in Kent (where I live) have been relating how women had been able to wear western garb while shopping. Many chose to wear a headscarf, but just as many chose not too by all accounts.

There was a great sense of hopeful optimism amid a growing economic class.
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Re: Idea of LGBT State and Queer nation creation

Unread postby PopTart » 3 October 2021, 00:33

Derek wrote:
PopTart wrote:You have doubled down on the not giving a fuck about the people's whose nations you are happy to kick over for, reasons.

Whose nations I'm happy to kick over? What the fuck makes you say that?
Your elected government, much like mine, has been happy to topple regimes for decades. Afghanistan was no different. You don't feel complicit? Did you do everything in your power, to put your vaunted principles into action and make it known, to the limits of your ability that you were strongly opposed to these actions, either at the time or since? No? Then suck it up, you, like me and all those other people who don't hold our leaders to account, are indeed complicit and that is where the responsibility comes into play.

Derek wrote:You say we lack the will to follow through. On what? What exactly do you think we were doing there? This boggles my mind. How you can you have so little concept of history that the notion of "following through" in Afghanistan doesn't cause you to flinch in horror? It should only come as a relief for everyone but a handful military industrialists that "following through" turned out to be impossible.
I'm sorry, are you meaning to suggest, that the ass backwards, religious degenerates in Afghanistan, are just, misunderstood victims of a history of western imperialism? Because I'm absolutely sure that regressive attitudes have prevailed in the region for alot longer than the last 2 centuries and that such attitudes have little to do with western imperialism.

Our countries went in to effect regime change (was that so they could get access to resources? Perhaps so, but turns out it is actually quite expensive, as endeavours go, I don't buy into the narrative that resource acquisition was the primary motivator) regardless, if you topple a regime, you have a moral duty to replace what you kick out, with something else.

Derek wrote:Our countries collectively have spent two hundred years invading Afghanistan. Two hundred years! Do you have any concept of causality? Why do you think Afghanistan is the way it is? How can you look at two hundred years of history and somehow - some fucking how - conclude that staying there even longer is the solution to anything? We're not there to fix things for the Afghan people! Jesus fucking Christ! We're there to loot its resources and secure our interests in the area. That's it. There's no room in functioning of our politics to allow anything else. We pull out because of "politik" - what the hell else do you think there is? Two hundred fucking years.
You seem to be losing your shit. Maybe you need to go to your safe space for a time out?

Afghanistan has largely been unaffected on a cultural level, by all previous attempts at invasion. Which is, as I believe I have expressed, why I was so surprised with the changes to lifestyle and culture that had begun to take root in the region after 20 years of occupation. THAT is unusual. It would seem to suggest something being different this time around. Perhaps it's the influence of the Internet, modern communication, creating a genuine desire for positive modernisation, that never existed before and could never find expression under the oppressive Taliban regime.

Derek wrote:And the "good" to come out of it - women not wearing burqas in some neighborhoods of Kabul? If you'll recall there were similar advancements in Tehran under the Shah, another corrupt, unpopular, unsustainable regime that engendered a massive reactionary backlash that shapes the politics of the region to this day. I'm sorry for the Afghan people, but their civil liberty is not something we are capable of giving them. If we were, they would be able to sustain them outside occupation.
trust an American to speak of Shah Reza like they are an authority. Many secular Iranians who fled to the UK after the American backed coup by the Ayatollah, speak of the bitter regret and lost opportunity that died with Reza Shah being ousted from power. He was Irans best chance of modernisation and true liberty.

Derek wrote:I'm not a pessimist at all. I believe advancements can be made in Afghanistan, but not while their course is being dictated by an amoral empire on the other side of the globe who could not give less of a fuck about their wellbeing. There was no moving forward until we left and I'm only sorry we didn't do it sooner. You don't put out a grease fire by throwing more grease at it.
No, I think that's your attitude because you dont believe your country could do anything right. Because you see the US as a tyrannical, imperialist regime. What advancements will come from the ideology and religious dogmatism espoused by the Taliban? And how is anything the US might offer worse than that? Are you so skewed that you see virtue in the philosophy of the Taliban but nothing od redeeming value on American culture?

Derek wrote:There's an extremely incorrect definition of insanity that people sometimes quote. That it's doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Ignorance isn't an excuse for enabling these cycles of immiseration.
and nothing comes from avoiding ones responsibilities as a consequence of prior actions. No matter how much you sensibilities are offended.
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Re: Idea of LGBT State and Queer nation creation

Unread postby Derek » 3 October 2021, 06:22

...You think I'm happy about what my country has done because I didn't have an anti-war Wordpress blog when I was 7? Is your entire worldview just these lacquered layers of excuses for why no one's criticism is legitimate?

This whole discussion is inane. There's nothing I can say to convince you about what our "help" is worth that isn't already overwhelmingly evident from a passing glance at Afghanistan, or a dozen other nations we've liberated. All I can do is try to repeat myself as succinctly as possible.

Poptart wrote:and nothing comes from avoiding ones responsibilities as a consequence of prior actions. No matter how much you sensibilities are offended.

Our actions only make things worse.

We - your country, my country, the Soviets - created the Taliban.

Our only responsibility is to leave and stay gone.
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Re: Idea of LGBT State and Queer nation creation

Unread postby Derek » 3 October 2021, 06:44

One other thing

Poptart wrote:trust an American to speak of Shah Reza like they are an authority. Many secular Iranians who fled to the UK after the American backed coup by the Ayatollah, speak of the bitter regret and lost opportunity that died with Reza Shah being ousted from power.

I'm not an authority on that topic, but at least I know the Iranian Revolution wasn't an "American backed coup by the Ayatollah". Jesus Christ.
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