The age old topic of circumcision

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Re: The age old topic of circumcision

Unread postby Spacekitty » 23 May 2020, 23:39

Found this interesting article...

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-england-48057183

To quote one specific part:

"Marvin was successfully treated for phimosis as a child using steroid cream, and he is concerned some consultants might be advising circumcision unnecessarily.

This is because his own son was advised to have a circumcision, rather than use steroid cream.

"I had phimosis as a kid and nearing my teenage years I visited the local doctor, who then prescribed some steroid cream that quickly sorted the problem," said Marvin.

His son's foreskin did not retract as he got older, so Marvin took him to a doctor when he was 11. He was then referred to a consultant at a children's hospital.

"At the appointment with the consultant the options were effectively either leave alone to see if it sorts itself or surgery," he said.

"Two surgery options were given: either circumcision or making a cut in the skin to see if that then heals and provides the necessary stretching."

Marvin then mentioned his own experience using steroid cream.

"The consultant said this has almost no chance of working but was prepared to prescribe a steroid and give it a go. About eight weeks later, the problem was resolved.

"The outcome might have been very different if I had not had the same issue as a kid.""
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Re: The age old topic of circumcision

Unread postby rogonandi » 24 May 2020, 09:06

I do remember reading that for some people the foreskin can’t fully retract until later in their life. This was the case for me, and I had some problems when I was younger. However since mine can retract fully now those problems are resolved, and steroid creams weren’t needed. :shrug:
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Re: The age old topic of circumcision

Unread postby rxxli » 24 May 2020, 10:48

I agree with what Eryx said in his post. Leave the dicks alone!

Luckily in this country that is what is usually the case. But they do seem to jump to the option of circumcision whenever there is a small problem instead of using different methods of correction.
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Re: The age old topic of circumcision

Unread postby Brenden » 24 May 2020, 14:42

Ander1969 wrote:Guys, there is lots of recent medical proof to show that HPV transmission is much lower in circumsized men then "intact" men. Lots. In male partners of circumsized men, rates of colorectal, esophageal, prostate, throat and mouth cancers are much lower. For women partners of circumsized men, you can include cervical and uterin cancers too. Wouldn't you forgo a little of your sensitivity to protect your partner's health?

Then you shouldn't have any problem citing that "proof".
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Re: The age old topic of circumcision

Unread postby Ander1969 » 24 May 2020, 20:26

Is your Google broken? Well, here is just one study, from the New England Journal of Medicine..
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2676895/
If one really cares about the people they fuck, they'd do their their own research too, the proof is incontrovertible.
And why is it that, for the most part, why is it only gay men who care about the "intactness" of their dicks? Straight men don't judge other men's dicks, neither do most women, gay or straight. I know some gay men can be so judgy, but to judge another man just because of the status of his penis is pretty sad. I'm beginning to wonder if this condemnation is just an extension of fetishism. I'm cut and happy with it, as are all people I sleep with. Don't put others down just because of your issues below the waist.
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Re: The age old topic of circumcision

Unread postby Brenden » 25 May 2020, 15:59

Ander1969 wrote:Is your Google broken?

You're the one making the claim. It's not other people's job to go chasing it up.

Ander1969 wrote:Well, here is just one study, from the New England Journal of Medicine..
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2676895/

Wow. One study. That's really "lots of recent medical proof`"!

Ander1969 wrote:If one really cares about the people they fuck, they'd do their their own research too, the proof is incontrovertible.

I think you need to look up the word "incontrovertible".

Circumcision and Sexually Transmitted Infections

This index page provides information about the relationship between circumcision and sexually transmitted disease (STD). The materials are indexed in chronological order of publication.

Note: The consideration of STDs and AIDS prevention does not apply to neonatal circumcision. Children are not sexually active. Kept intact, they can weigh the issue for themselves when they are old enough to consent.

Introduction

History. In the early part of the Twentieth Century, many doctors formed the opinion that circumcision would reduce the chance of a male contracting sexually transmitted disease (STD). This opinion was based on popular considerations of sexual hygiene. There were no scientific studies or documentary evidence to support this opinion. Regardless, countless males were circumcised by military services of the U.S. and other nations during World Wars I and II in an attempt to reduce the chance that they would contract a STD.

In a self-published pamphlet, Circumcision: A Parent's Decision for Life, the late circumcisionist Aaron J. Fink made the suggestion that the dried-out, cornified circumcised glans and mucosa would be "tougher," and somehow therefore less prone to infection, than those of intact men. This claim was even published in The New England Journal of Medicine, but, in fact, there is no evidence to support Fink's theory.5,10,13

Behavior. It is documented that circumcised adult males exhibit a greater tendency to engage in risky sexual behavior. Hooykaas and colleagues reported that circumcised men in the Netherlands engage in more risky sexual behavior and have markedly higher rates of STDs.3 Laumann and colleagues reported more risky sexual behavior amongst circumcised men in the United States and have higher rates of STDs.9 Michael et al. reported more variability in sexual behavior, less condom usage, and more STD amonst the predominantly circumcised population of the United States as compared with the predominantly non-circumcised intact males of the United Kingdom.12

Immunology. Fleiss et al. have described the many natural immunological protective mechanisms provided by the prepuce against infection.10 The prepuce has many immunological protections against disease.10 These mechanisms may explain why surgically-altered, circumcised men seem to have a greater incidence of many different STDs. Dried-out mucous membranes are more prone to infection than naturally moist ones (which is the reason people tend to get more colds in the wintertime!).

The foreskin naturally moisturizes the glans penis, keeping it in optimum healthy condition to resist infection. The subpreputial moisture also contains lysozyme, an enzyme that attacks and destroys the cell walls of bacteria.1,10

Laumann et al. reviewed data from the National Health and Social Life Survey.9 They found no evidence of a prophylactic role for circumcision. In fact, there was a slight tendency in the opposite direction.9 The absence of the foreskin was significantly associated with bacterial STDs among men who have had many sexual partners in their lifetimes. A rate of 25.4/1000 for chlamydia was found in circumcised men compared with a rate of zero in intact men; herpes was 14.9/1000 in circumcised males compared with 8.1/1000 in intact males.9

Tanne reported on the epidemic of STD, including herpes, human papillomavirus infection, hepatitis B, and HIV infection in the United States.11 The incidence of STD in the United States is amongst the highest in the industrialized world. This should not be surprising, considering the high incidence of circumcision in the US: According to Laumann et al., data from the National Health and Social Life Survey indicate that, in 1992, of 1511 men surveyed who were between 18 and 59 years of age, 77 percent of U.S. born men were circumcised.9 This high percentage is unique among the industrialized nations.8

Natural protection. While the entire body of medical literature gives no clear indication one way or the other whether circumcision protects against STD, the more recent studies have shown that the natural intact penis may offer some protection against the contraction of various STDs.2-7, 12, 13 According to Storms:

Recent studies have demonstrated that circumcised men are at increased risk of contracting gonorrhea, syphilis and genital warts. Men are at equal risk for developing human papillomavirus lesions and herpesvirus infections regardless of circumcision status. At least four studies have shown human immunodeficiency virus infection to occur more commonly in circumcised men.8


Recent studies have demonstrated that circumcised men are more at risk of contracting urethritis,2 gonorrhea,8 syphilis,9 genital warts4,8 and chlamydia.9 Cook discovered that, when genital warts occur in intact males, they tend to occur near the distal (tip) end of the penis4—the region where the foreskin's protection would be least effective.

Van Howe's survey of the medical literature is recommended. Van Howe concludes that:

The only consistent trend is that uncircumcised males may be more susceptible to GUD, while circumcised men are more prone to urethritis. Currently, in developed nations, urethritis is more common than GUD [genital ulcer disease]. In summary, the medical literature does not support the theory that circumcision prevents STDs.13


Longitudinal studies. Dickson et al. in Dunedin studied a cohort of New Zealand children born in 1972. This cohort, who are now adults, have been followed since birth. The males in the group included both intact (not circumcised) and circumcised males. 201 or 40.3 percent of the male subjects were circumcised. Dickson et al. found no relationship between circumcision status and HPV infection.15 In a second study of the same New Zealand cohort through age 32, Dickson et al. found more STDs in circumcised subjects, although the difference was not statistically significant.17 There were 24.4 STD infections per 1000 person-years among the circumcised group and 23.4 STD infections per 1000 person-years among the non-circumcised group.16

Cross-sectional studies. Cross-sectional studies have been carried out in the United States,9 the United Kingdom,14 and Australia16 to determine the effects of circumcision upon STDs. All studies have found no significant effect of circumcision on the incidence of STD. Laumann et al. reported that circumcised men are slightly more likely to have both a bacterial and a viral STD in their lifetime.9 The British National Survey of Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles reported that circumcised males have slightly more STDs but the difference was not judged to be statistically significant.14 Richters et al. found that non-circumcised men are slightly more likely to have penile candidiasis (yeast).17

Conclusion. The evidence does not support non-therapeutic circumcision to prevent STD infection. On balance, non-circumcision is to be preferred because of the freedom from complications and other adverse effects.

  1. Prakash S, Raghuram R, Venkatesan, et al. Sub-preputial wetness - Its nature. Ann Nat Med Sci (India) 1982; 18(3):109-112.
  2. Smith GL, Greenup R, Takafuji ET. Circumcision as a risk factor for urethritis in racial groups. Am J Public Health 1987; 77: 452-4.
  3. Hooykaas C, van der Velde FW, van der Linden MM. et al. The importance of ethnicity as a risk factor for STDs and sexual behaviour among heterosexuals. Genitourin Med 1991; 67(5): 378-83.
  4. Cook LS. Koutsky LA. Holmes KK. Clinical presentation of genital warts among circumcised and uncircumcised heterosexual men attending an urban STD clinic. Genitourin Med 1993; 69: 262-4.
  5. Cook LS, Koutsky LA, Holmes KK. Circumcision and sexually transmitted diseases. Am J Public Health 1994; 84: 197-201.
  6. Donovan B, Bassett I, Bodsworth NJ. Male circumcision and common sexually transmissible diseases in a developed nation setting. Genitourin Med 1994; 70: 317-20.
  7. Donovan B, Bassett I, Bodsworth NJ et al. Herpes simplex virus type 2 infection of heterosexual men attending a sexual health centre. Med J Aust 1994,160:69-70.
  8. Storms MR. AAFP Fact Sheet on neonatal circumcision: a need for updating. Am Fam Physician 1996;54(4):1216-17.
  9. Laumann EO, Masi CM, Zuckerman EW. Circumcision in the United States: prevalence, prophylactic effects, and sexual practice. JAMA 1997;277:1052-7.
  10. Fleiss PM, Hodges FM, Van Howe RS. Immunological functions of the human prepuce. Sex Transm Inf 1998;74:364-7.
  11. Tanne JH. US has epidemic of sexually transmitted disease. BMJ 1998;317:1616. (Link to http://www.bmj.com)
  12. Michael RT, Wadsworth J, Feinleib J, et al. Private sexual behavior, public opinion, and public health policy related to sexually transmitted diseases: a US-British comparison. Am J Public Health 1998;88(5):749-54.
  13. Van Howe RS. Does circumcision influence sexually transmitted diseases?: A literature review. BJU Int 1999; 83, Suppl 1:52-62.
  14. Dave SS, Johnson AM, Fenton KA, et al. Male circumcision in Britain: findings from a national probability sample survey. Sex Trans Infect 2003;79:499-500.
  15. Dickson N, van Roode T, Paul C. Herpes simplex virus type 2 status at age 26 is not related to early circumcision in a birth cohort. Sex Transm Dis 2005;32(8):517-9.
  16. Richters J, Smith AMA, de Visser RO, et al. Circumcision in Australia: prevalence and effects on sexual health. Int J STD AIDS 2006;17:547–54.
  17. Dickson NP, Van Rood T, Herbison P, Paul C. Circumcision and risk of sexually transmitted infections in a birth cohort. J Pediatr 2008;152:383-7. DOI: 10.1016/j.jpeds.2007.07.044


Ander1969 wrote:And why is it that, for the most part, why is it only gay men who care about the "intactness" of their dicks? Straight men don't judge other men's dicks, neither do most women, gay or straight.

Maybe it's because gay men like other men's dicks. Ya think of that? Why would straight men care about something they aren't attracted to?

Ander1969 wrote:I know some gay men can be so judgy, but to judge another man just because of the status of his penis is pretty sad. I'm beginning to wonder if this condemnation is just an extension of fetishism. I'm cut and happy with it, as are all people I sleep with. Don't put others down just because of your issues below the waist.

Criticising a practice such as infant male genital mutilation is not the same as judging victims of the practice. If you feel judged by criticisms of it, then that's on you and maybe belies a feeling of loss.
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Re: The age old topic of circumcision

Unread postby Ander1969 » 25 May 2020, 18:17

Lol! Your website is a known radical advocacy site and the majority of information is very dated. Nice try. But you did prove my point about the personal attacks just to score points. Thank you. So back to the topic.

Here are more scientific based, non judgemental reasons for circumcision...

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lang ... 14-109X(17)30386-8/fulltext


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3210112/

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/gu ... al-cancer/

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa011688

https://www.everydayhealth.com/sexual-h ... -risk.aspx

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-re ... t-syphilis

https://www.nature.com/news/doctors-bac ... on-1.11296

I stand behind my original claim. Circumcision reduces HPV transmission, hence cancers, in the partners of circumsized men. Can it reduce male sensitivity in the penis? Maybe a little, though this has not been clinically proven. But in this age of hyper awareness to viruses, why would anyone advocate for their own sexual pleasure if it could cost someone else their life, all over a virus.
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Re: The age old topic of circumcision

Unread postby Brenden » 25 May 2020, 19:14

What personal attack?

A virus for which we have a vaccine.
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Re: The age old topic of circumcision

Unread postby Ander1969 » 25 May 2020, 21:48

Man, if you are comfortable with pumping your body full of vaccines for everything, have at it. Maybe Bill Gates has an extra vaccine or two lying around just waiting for a sickness. I'll pass thanks. Right now there are way too many corporations just waiting to inject you full of their product, for big profit of course. Just ask Fauci.
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Re: The age old topic of circumcision

Unread postby Brenden » 26 May 2020, 00:25

OMG, you're an anti-vaxer. :rofl:

Man, if you are comfortable having a functional part of your male anatomy chopped off, have at it. But don't do it to infants and children.
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Re: The age old topic of circumcision

Unread postby Eryx » 26 May 2020, 07:26

Oh no, the crazy has reached these parts.
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Re: The age old topic of circumcision

Unread postby Spacekitty » 26 May 2020, 07:32

Eryx wrote:Oh no, the crazy has reached these parts.


:lol: I've been quietly following this. A subject everyone has an opinion on - be it a different opinion or the same.
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Re: The age old topic of circumcision

Unread postby rogonandi » 26 May 2020, 12:00

Spacekitty wrote:
Eryx wrote:Oh no, the crazy has reached these parts.


:lol: I've been quietly following this. A subject everyone has an opinion on - be it a different opinion or the same.

Vaccination or circumcism? I think Eryx was commenting on the former.
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Re: The age old topic of circumcision

Unread postby Spacekitty » 26 May 2020, 12:41

rogonandi wrote:
Spacekitty wrote:
Eryx wrote:Oh no, the crazy has reached these parts.


:lol: I've been quietly following this. A subject everyone has an opinion on - be it a different opinion or the same.

Vaccination or circumcism? I think Eryx was commenting on the former.


Probably, yes. I was commenting on how the treat has gone on and off topic. I was hinting at how everything is pretty much all over the show. Everyone should have their opinion on stuff but I kinda don't like it when people feel the need to draw guns to make points. One can have an opinion and still be kind about it, if it makes sense.
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Re: The age old topic of circumcision

Unread postby Magic J » 26 May 2020, 14:38

Ander1969 wrote:Your website is a known radical advocacy site...

Known by whom? I mean, it's not exactly Bash Back round here, it's it? :P

On the topic, I wouldn't advocate for circumcising very young children, which as I understand is the usual time when men are circumcised at the behest of the parents. I don't think I'd want to insist that it's not done, but I would probably emphasise that the reasons it's generally done aren't strictly necessary, and at root more of a tradition. Adults can do what they want, as far as I'm concerned. Read the research if you're so inclined and make your own mind up. As it stands, there does seem to be some evidence for reduced HIV transmission.

It's not particularly common in the UK, outside of religious and medical reasons, to be honest, so the topic doesn't come up as much as it might elsewhere.
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Re: The age old topic of circumcision

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 26 May 2020, 16:55

Eryx wrote:Oh no, the crazy has reached these parts.

I love how early he cites science and then selectively discards it when it suddenly doesn’t align with his Illuminati, Elmer’s-glue-eating school of thought.
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Re: The age old topic of circumcision

Unread postby Ander1969 » 27 May 2020, 05:00

Hmm, since I and my kids are vaccinated, I've never considered myself an anti-vaxer, until someone proposed to include a tracking microchip (digital certificate) in this covid vaccine. Fuck that. Yup, I'm an anti-vaxer now.
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Re: The age old topic of circumcision

Unread postby Derek » 27 May 2020, 05:27

People think Bill Gates is using 5G to poison wells instead of thinking he's an exploitative billionaire who flew on Jeffrey Epstein's plane.
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Re: The age old topic of circumcision

Unread postby Eryx » 27 May 2020, 09:40

That someone must be a very trustworthy dude.
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Re: The age old topic of circumcision

Unread postby Choicespecs » 27 May 2020, 10:39

I think this is only the tip of the issues here.
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