What are you thinking at the moment?

Talk about anything and everything.

Re: What are you thinking at the moment?

Unread postby erti » 17 December 2021, 00:28

I feel like I don’t deserve the nice things in life.
“Don't take my devils away, because my angels may flee too.”

― Rainer Maria Rilke
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Re: What are you thinking at the moment?

Unread postby Derek » 17 December 2021, 05:35

This week a study of gender-affirming therapy on trans and non-binary youth was published. With a sample of over 34,000, it's by far the largest study to date on the topic.

https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(21)00568-1/fulltext

Some of the hesitance regarding gender-affirming care for transgender and nonbinary youth may be due to a misunderstanding of the causes of mental health challenges in transgender and nonbinary individuals, such as a failure to recognize ways incongruence between physical traits and one's gender identity can produce psychological distress marked by depression. High rates of depression, suicidal ideation, and suicide attempts among transgender youth are sometimes used by antitransgender politicians and activists to erroneously suggest that transgender identity is a mental health condition that can be treated through counseling and conversion efforts [[27]]. These individuals ignore the impacts of gender dysphoria and minority stress [[28]] and suggest that GAHT is not necessary if transgender youth can be counseled into accepting their sex assigned at birth. The findings of this study demonstrate that GAHT could be a potential mechanism by which mental health and suicide disparities among transgender and nonbinary youth may begin to decrease. Furthermore, existing evidence suggests that regret is low for gender-affirming care interventions, with one study of 55 transgender adults who had received gender-affirming care as adolescents finding that not one experienced regret [[29]].


Some food for thought
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Re: What are you thinking at the moment?

Unread postby Brenden » 17 December 2021, 11:02

The sample size you quote is not 34,000 transgender youth, it's 34,000 LGBTQ youth from Facebook, Instagram and Snapchat of which only 9,000 or so were trans/non-binary and actually completed the entire survey including the part about about "gender affirming" hormone therapy.

Data were from an online nonprobability sample collected between October and December 2020 of 34,759 youth aged 13–24 who resided in the U.S. and identified as LGBTQ. Youth were recruited via targeted ads on Facebook, Instagram, and Snapchat. Those who reported residing outside of the U.S., having an age below 13 or above 24, or being both heterosexual and cisgender were excluded from the sample. To approach a more representative sample, targeted recruitment was conducted to ensure adequate sample sizes with respect to geography and race/ethnicity.

A total of 11,914 youth from unique IP address indicated that they were transgender or nonbinary. Our question on GAHT was placed toward the end of the survey, and as such 2,895 youth had missing data.


Furthermore, the study's actual sample for their main calculation is just about 5,700 individuals — they basically are only comparing recipients of hormone therapy with non-recipient desirers of hormone therapy.

So, not surprising that people who think they need a certain treatment which they are not receiving are more depressed than people who are receiving such desired treatment.

And yet again a non-randomised non-controlled non-blinded non-clinical non-trial being touted as evidence for a serious, consequential, irreversible medical intervention.
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Re: What are you thinking at the moment?

Unread postby Derek » 17 December 2021, 15:23

Imagine a clinical, randomized, double-blinded trial for GAHT. There will never be one because that would be incredibly unethical (and nonsensical). The only improvement to make in this area of research is in quantity and longitude. The authors here note that the evidence only suggests correlation, but it's statistically compelling nonetheless. The body of evidence is consistent and continues to grow.

So, not surprising that people who think they need a certain treatment which they are not receiving are more depressed than people who are receiving such desired treatment.

Huh? If treatment wasn't producing the desired effect, why wouldn't that cause, worsen, or fail to alleviate depression? A survey of depression is bound to have a lot fuzzy edges, but that is not sound reasoning, especially when the question at the center of the study is whether GAHT is effective treatment - for people who want it.
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PostThis post was deleted by René on 17 December 2021, 17:17.

Re: What are you thinking at the moment?

Unread postby René » 17 December 2021, 17:24

Derek wrote:Some food for thought

Might be more nutritious if researchers who e.g. try to talk to people who do experience regret or choose to detransition, or who reach the wrong findings, didn't have to worry about getting defunded, as we've discussed before and as, if I recall correctly, was of concern to you as well. There is a research/publication bias, limiting the trust we can have in what makes it through the filter of political correctness.

Derek wrote:This week a study of gender-affirming therapy on trans and non-binary youth was published. With a sample of over 34,000, it's by far the largest study to date on the topic.
Brenden wrote:The sample size you quote is not 34,000 transgender youth, it's 34,000 LGBTQ youth from Facebook, Instagram and Snapchat of which only 9,000 or so were trans/non-binary and actually completed the entire survey including the part about about "gender affirming" hormone therapy.

Yeah, that was obviously misleading, Derek. It's hard to misinterpret "Data were collected as part of a 2020 survey of 34,759 lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and questioning youth aged 13–24".

Brenden wrote:
Data were from an online nonprobability sample collected between October and December 2020 of 34,759 youth aged 13–24 who resided in the U.S. and identified as LGBTQ. Youth were recruited via targeted ads on Facebook, Instagram, and Snapchat. Those who reported residing outside of the U.S., having an age below 13 or above 24, or being both heterosexual and cisgender were excluded from the sample. To approach a more representative sample, targeted recruitment was conducted to ensure adequate sample sizes with respect to geography and race/ethnicity.

A total of 11,914 youth from unique IP address indicated that they were transgender or nonbinary. Our question on GAHT was placed toward the end of the survey, and as such 2,895 youth had missing data.


Furthermore, the study's actual sample for their main calculation is just about 5,700 individuals — they basically are only comparing recipients of hormone therapy with non-recipient desirers of hormone therapy.

So, not surprising that people who think they need a certain treatment which they are not receiving are more depressed than people who are receiving such desired treatment.

It's also kind of funny to see a study boasting a sample size of 34,759 not-necessarily-trans-or-gender-diverse people cite (in your quote) "one study of 55 transgender adults" to support its conclusions. Not exactly a meta-analysis. Such blatant cherrypicking doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their conclusions either.
(While there is a bias in the literature, it isn't hard to find multiple studies with quite different findings — as one would expect given the small sample sizes involved.)

And interesting to note that we didn't hear from you when earlier this year a survey* of 27,715 actual trans or gender-diverse people found that among those who reported having pursued gender affirmation, 13.1% reported later detransitioning.

*Something that stood out to me while reading this paper is that it is itself fundamentally biased, making it more palatable e.g. in terms of gaining funding, in that it seems to take for granted that the objective should be to make sure patients don't detransition, rather than actually listening to these people and their concerns when they don't like what they hear.

Or 2 months ago when a survey of 100 detransitioners actually made its way to publication, finding e.g. that detransitioners had felt pressure to transition from those around them and from the medical establishment:

Clinicians, partners, friends, and society were named as sources that applied pressure to transition, as seen in the following quotes: “My gender therapist acted like it [transition] was a panacea for everything;” “[My] [d]octor pushed drugs and surgery at every visit;” “I was dating a trans woman and she framed our relationship in a way that was contingent on my being trans;” “A couple of later trans friends kept insisting that I needed to stop delaying things;” “[My] best friend told me repeatedly that it [transition] was best for me;” “The forums and communities and internet friends;” “By the whole of society telling me I was wrong as a lesbian;” and “Everyone says that if you feel like a different gender…then you just are that gender and you should transition.”

...with 60% having grown more comfortable identifying as their natal sex over time, 49% having had concerns about potential medical complications from transitioning, 38% having come to the view that their gender dysphoria was caused by something specific such as trauma, abuse or a mental health condition, 23% having realised that homophobia or difficulty accepting themselves as lesbian, gay or bisexual had contributed to their decision to transition, and 55% feeling that they had not received an adequate evaluation from a doctor or mental-health professional before starting transition and only 24% of respondents having informed their clinicians that they had detransitioned (making it easy for them to slip through the net — a doctor may include them in numbers of successful results because that's the last they thought they knew, not realising the failure rate may be 4 times as high as they thought).
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Re: What are you thinking at the moment?

Unread postby Derek » 17 December 2021, 22:00

René wrote:Might be more nutritious if researchers who e.g. try to talk to people who do experience regret or choose to detransition, or who reach the wrong findings, didn't have to worry about getting defunded, as we've discussed before and as, if I recall correctly, was of concern to you as well. There is a research/publication bias, limiting the trust we can have in what makes it through the filter of political correctness.

I don't understand. What is the point of bringing up that possibility, except as a vague and unfalsifiable way of discrediting the body of research that does exist? I don't believe the narrative that the cabal of gender ideologues exerts that level of control over academic study, but even so it's not actually a criticism of the research that was published. How would you have conducted this study so that it would have gotten to the secret truth we all know is lying in wait?

It's also kind of funny to see a study boasting a sample size of 34,759 not-necessarily-trans-or-gender-diverse people cite (in your quote) "one study of 55 transgender adults" to support its conclusions. Not exactly a meta-analysis. Such blatant cherrypicking doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their conclusions either.

That's an incredibly uncharitable reading of a single point given in context. There are very few credible studies that provide longitudinal data on gender transition, and even so it's not used to support their conclusion that GAHT could help alleviate in depression and suicidality among trans youth. You could just as easily substitute that citation with this next study that you brought up for some reason.

And interesting to note that we didn't hear from you when earlier this year a survey* of 27,715 actual trans or gender-diverse people found that among those who reported having pursued gender affirmation, 13.1% reported later detransitioning.

Why is that "interesting"?

I have seen this one before in the context of it being cited by people in support of gender transition, as it says:

The vast majority of participants reported detransition due at least in part to external factors, such as pressure from family, nonaffirming school environments, and sexual assault. External pressures such as family rejection,15 school-based harassment,16 lack of government affirmation,17 and sexual violence18 have previously been associated with increased suicide attempts in TGD populations

A minority of respondents reported that detransition was due to internal factors, including psychological reasons, uncertainty about gender identity, and fluctuations in gender identity. These experiences did not necessarily reflect regret regarding past gender affirmation, and were presumably temporary, as all of these respondents subsequently identified as TGD, an eligibility requirement for study participation.

Which is to say that the vast majority of people who detransition do it because of discrimination, not because of a change in their gender identity or dysphoria. It follows that discrimination is the problem, not transitioning.

René wrote:*Something that stood out to me while reading this paper is that it is itself fundamentally biased, making it more palatable e.g. in terms of gaining funding, in that it seems to take for granted that the objective should be to make sure patients don't detransition, rather than actually listening to these people and their concerns when they don't like what they hear.

...What? The purpose of the study is very explicitly to examine the reasoning behind detransitioning, not whether detransitioning was the appropriate course of action to begin with. I can't imagine how it reads as "biased" to you that it doesn't go out of its way to tout detransitioning for reasons that aren't at all apparent in the study itself. "Actually listening to these people"? I'm honestly so confused. What about this study suggests they weren't listening?

René wrote:Or 2 months ago when a survey of 100 detransitioners actually made its way to publication, finding e.g. that detransitioners had felt pressure to transition from those around them and from the medical establishment:

Clinicians, partners, friends, and society were named as sources that applied pressure to transition, as seen in the following quotes: “My gender therapist acted like it [transition] was a panacea for everything;” “[My] [d]octor pushed drugs and surgery at every visit;” “I was dating a trans woman and she framed our relationship in a way that was contingent on my being trans;” “A couple of later trans friends kept insisting that I needed to stop delaying things;” “[My] best friend told me repeatedly that it [transition] was best for me;” “The forums and communities and internet friends;” “By the whole of society telling me I was wrong as a lesbian;” and “Everyone says that if you feel like a different gender…then you just are that gender and you should transition.”

...with 60% having grown more comfortable identifying as their natal sex over time, 49% having had concerns about potential medical complications from transitioning, 38% having come to the view that their gender dysphoria was caused by something specific such as trauma, abuse or a mental health condition, 23% having realised that homophobia or difficulty accepting themselves as lesbian, gay or bisexual had contributed to their decision to transition, and 55% feeling that they had not received an adequate evaluation from a doctor or mental-health professional before starting transition and only 24% of respondents having informed their clinicians that they had detransitioned (making it easy for them to slip through the net — a doctor may include them in numbers of successful results because that's the last they thought they knew, not realising the failure rate may be 4 times as high as they thought).

I had not heard of this one, although I recognize the author as someone who has been roundly criticized for poor, biased methodology. The jury on this one is still out and out of my depth, although a bit of googling yields some criticism, of which the most notable part is that Littman distributed her questionnaire on TERF blogs and subreddits. If we're going to make sense of this question that gives such radically divergent results, I would rather refer to the LGBT Health study which handled 27k respondents and used a cross-sectional sampling design in collaboration with community outreach groups, not the one that took 100 respondents from self-identified "gender critical" subreddits. Likewise, I would rather look at the study of 55 who were selected indiscriminately from a certain time frame at a single clinic, and not the one made up of self-selected respondents from communities formed specifically around dissatisfaction with their transition. Littman's survey offers an extremely narrow view of why a certain subset of self-selected detransitioners detransitioned - it tells us nothing about the prevalence of detransitioning in general, or of the effects of transitioning on mental health in general.

I'd like to add that I don't discredit the testimonies and experiences of the people who responded to Littman's survey. Now that I've finished writing the rest and taken a step back, I'm not even sure how these studies factor in the conversation. It's not necessary at all to argue that people never detransition or are never pressured into transitioning. Obviously, it happens. The point of bringing up detransitioners in response to the study I posted was to... what, exactly? Suggest that the availability of GAHT to teenagers does more harm than good, in spite of the emerging scientific consensus? It seems like the actual point of all this is to condemn the supposed the villainy of gender ideologues preying on children, not to make a qualitative statement about either healthcare or politics.
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Re: What are you thinking at the moment?

Unread postby erti » 18 December 2021, 19:16

Talked to my therapist the other day. They said I’m doing well despite all the stuff I hear and see on a daily.
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Re: What are you thinking at the moment?

Unread postby Jzone » 19 December 2021, 00:31

Living vicariously through my VPN, which shows me in Italy at the moment. If only...
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Re: What are you thinking at the moment?

Unread postby PopTart » 19 December 2021, 08:31

I'd take a sunny, warm climate right now. Preferably with sweeping vistas and lots of yummy food and drink and good company!

I really don't want to go to work tomorrow :lol: It has literally none of those things.
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Re: What are you thinking at the moment?

Unread postby rogonandi » 19 December 2021, 09:25

Creating carpet design patterns is surprisingly difficult.
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Re: What are you thinking at the moment?

Unread postby Brenden » 19 December 2021, 13:41

rogonandi wrote:Creating carpet design patterns is surprisingly difficult.

IRL or are you playing Animal Crossing? :P
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Re: What are you thinking at the moment?

Unread postby rogonandi » 19 December 2021, 19:17

Brenden wrote:
rogonandi wrote:Creating carpet design patterns is surprisingly difficult.

IRL or are you playing Animal Crossing? :P

Not quite animal crossing but it is video game related. :D
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Re: What are you thinking at the moment?

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 19 December 2021, 19:21

People are really pushing for this “unhoused” term to replace homeless. Is that supposed to take the sting out of living on the streets or something?
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Re: What are you thinking at the moment?

Unread postby PopTart » 19 December 2021, 19:39

poolerboy0077 wrote:People are really pushing for this “unhoused” term to replace homeless. Is that supposed to take the sting out of living on the streets or something?

How sanitised. Perhaps it's to protect peoples sensibilities. Or maybe it makes homelessness, seem less of a "our" problem and more of a "their" problem.

I mean, it almost sounds like a lifestyle choice, rather than the result of abject poverty or social failings. Unfettered, unconcerned, you too can be: Unhoused.
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Re: What are you thinking at the moment?

Unread postby Marmaduke » 19 December 2021, 20:11

poolerboy0077 wrote:People are really pushing for this “unhoused” term to replace homeless. Is that supposed to take the sting out of living on the streets or something?

It implies someone has unhoused them, it gives society a new unseen evil-doer to blame for the problem it has never wanted to address.
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Re: What are you thinking at the moment?

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 19 December 2021, 21:18

Marmaduke wrote:
poolerboy0077 wrote:People are really pushing for this “unhoused” term to replace homeless. Is that supposed to take the sting out of living on the streets or something?

It implies someone has unhoused them, it gives society a new unseen evil-doer to blame for the problem it has never wanted to address.

Based on the legacy of shifting to new euphemisms, I’m going to predict that this is going to be a dud.
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Re: What are you thinking at the moment?

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 20 December 2021, 03:43

It’s somewhat curious to me that we go to great lengths to preserve not only certain species of animals and plants but all current varieties in existence, and in some cases bringing them back into existence if they have become extinct. I wonder if society will do the same for white folks once their pale and platinum blonde varieties are at risk of extinction. Or if gays dip in population, would it be an ethical requirement for us to genetically produce more gay babies so that gay people are secured a partner later in life? You’re welcome for the problematic questions of the day.




I’m so bad with Xmas gifts. Anyone have any ideas for gifts?
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Re: What are you thinking at the moment?

Unread postby Brenden » 20 December 2021, 14:41

rogonandi wrote:
Brenden wrote:
rogonandi wrote:Creating carpet design patterns is surprisingly difficult.

IRL or are you playing Animal Crossing? :P

Not quite animal crossing but it is video game related. :D

Ah, but making a video game I'd consider to be an IRL activity!
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Re: What are you thinking at the moment?

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 22 December 2021, 17:33

I don’t get why people like scones. They’re like the most boring food. Same goes for bagels.
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