What made your day / made you smile today?

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Re: What made your day / made you smile today?

Unread postby Derek » 8 April 2018, 23:53

I concede.
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Re: What made your day / made you smile today?

Unread postby mxguy01 » 9 April 2018, 00:30

Derek wrote:I concede.

Please no I beg of you!
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Re: What made your day / made you smile today?

Unread postby Brenden » 9 April 2018, 19:37

mxguy01 wrote:
mxguy01 wrote:
Brenden wrote:^ Translation: In order to not tax rich people, but still get money in some way to fund our schools to pump out human capital for those rich people, we’re setting up a system in which poor people buy an astronomically small chance of getting rich, with a fraction of the proceeds going to education.


Some reality here (wrt US Fed Taxes): Middle class is taxed the hardest. And while some of the embarrassingly rich may not pay enough taxes because they can afford really expensive tax lawyers and etc, most people in the higher tax brackets pay way more than their fair share of taxes. You should maybe take a harder look at the US tax brackets. And also understand some of the other tax laws such as AMT works to eliminate what minimum amount of deductions I can clam in the first place.

Honestly I don't hold a bias towards people who have been successful either through hard work or just plain dumb luck. Just like the rest of us, some are sleaze bags at best, some are decent people.

And when you start out with "In order to not tax rich people" you make it sound like only "rich" people should bare the burden of taxation.

87% is returned to the public. Not an small amount goes to the school system. I'd rather people buy an occasional $1 lottery ticket than go to the casino and play into the hands of a corporation that only looks to make profit at the expense of destroying many people's lives.



Brenden have a question for you -
So the subject of fair taxation: Take my case. The truth is I grew up lower class. At an early age you could tell I wanted more. I had already started a savings account and was putting money away for a car at something like 10 years old. I had a plan that if I put away a couple dollars every week... I started working at 14 as a bus boy under the table. Then above when I could legally work and you know what, I paid my taxes and I've been paying them ever since. I realized at a young age that what I wanted was more than a car. I wanted out of the economic class I was born into. I wanted to leave my parents house and never have to return meaning live with them again. I also wanted to never to have to "borrow" money from my parents. So that car fund became a college fund and I deferred having a car until I had my BS degree and had a my first real job. I paid my own tuition along the way. I lived at home so I would not have to also pay the cost of housing. Yeah, I gave up "college life" too. Not a dollar taken from the Bank of Parents (for all intensive purposes), none in loans. When I left my home town I had $500 to my name but I also had zero debt. Fast forward a few years. Late 20's I recognized if I wanted a decent retirement or even better yet the financial means to do things even before retirement - it would require saving and investing. So I began maxing out retirement contributions every way I could. As years went by additional investing. So I would say I passed up on some things others didn't, to invest in my future. I'm not exactly wealthy. Divorce is brutal to finances. But I don't need much to keep me happy. Sure, I can afford a few things, now. But back to my question: Because I chose the path I chose, had some success financially, I should be forever penalized on an rather unfair burden on the tax rate because I chose that path and I chose to give up some things early to have a better life later? Don't you see how that becomes discouraging for people to do the right thing? Do you really think it is fair for me to pay an obnoxiously higher tax rate opposed to someone who chooses to slide through life doing little for themselves?

You're comparing your anecdotal self to an ridiculous caricature of a poor person.

And yes, I do. You pay the higher rate on the money you make in excess of the lower bracket. The logic of progressive taxation is that the less money people make the larger portion of their income go to the necessities of life; the more you make, the smaller the portion, and the more likely that the taxes cut into unnecessary spending that doesn't have an impact on your quality of life.

As Derek alluded to, you seem to assume that "rich people" includes you and the rest of the middle class (in the American sense of the term). Who I'm actually talking about are the truly rich — those who have an inordinate influence on politics and society beyond their vote and individual voice, and who constantly work to push the tax burden off their own shoulders and onto the shoulders of the classes below them. They understand that society needs certain things to be paid for, and they reap the rewards of those things being paid for (security, infrastructure, development of human capital, etc.), and they understand that the influence imbalance means they can get away with reducing their burden to the detriment of those without influence. Note that throughout recent history tax breaks have been skewed toward the benefit of those at the top, even though they already pay lower effective rates than you and everyone else in the middle, and the loopholes that partially enable the lower effective rates are never really gotten rid of despite the political rhetoric.
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Re: What made your day / made you smile today?

Unread postby rogonandi » 9 April 2018, 20:06

What makes me smile is that I have the resolve to continue living.
Why are you?

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Re: What made your day / made you smile today?

Unread postby Derek » 9 April 2018, 21:42

If the FBI obtained a warrant to seize privileged communications from Michael Cohen, it must mean they already have some evidence of wrongdoing, never mind the the political pressure of signing off on something so high-profile. I hope the coming weeks will be as enlightening as they are entertaining.
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Re: What made your day / made you smile today?

Unread postby mxguy01 » 9 April 2018, 22:18

Brenden wrote:As Derek alluded to, you seem to assume that "rich people" includes you

Really? Because I wrote "I'm not exactly wealthy". And my main implication seems to be that I put a few dollars away earlier so that I'd have a few more later. So sorry but that is BS.

Brenden wrote:anecdotal self
Sorry but completely factual. In addition, you seem to completely miss the point but rather blindly be insistent upon purely your narrow view of it.

Brenden wrote:an ridiculous caricature of a poor person

Um, please show me where I posted any such thing. You, BP and Derek seem to want to insist I have a dim view of people at the lower end of the economic scale. <- this actually pisses me off quite a bit. I will say I don't feel one bit sorry for people who are in the lower scale of the economy, who spend time bitching about it, but yet don't do a single thing to work towards doing something about it. WalMart jobs and such were never meant to support a family.


Brenden wrote:Note that throughout recent history tax breaks have been skewed toward the benefit of those at the top, even though they already pay lower effective rates than you and everyone else in the middle, and the loopholes that partially enable the lower effective rates are never really gotten rid of despite the political rhetoric.


Tax breaks for the "rich" have largely been eliminated. But rather their reduced effective tax rate is that the bulk of their income is from capitol gains and not earnings from employment. This is a good read - https://taxfoundation.org/why-capital-gains-are-taxed-lower-rate/

I'm far more in favor of a flat tax. Make more = pay more but still a fair share. Make less = pay less.

Oh, and BTW, revenue gains of the .001% of wage earners from higher taxes would not add up to a hill of beans compared to the overall tax collected from the population base.

Brenden wrote:influence imbalance

I completely agree about this. But a counter point would be that the population base has control of the vote, therefore they have the largest influence <- reality shows this is not true IMO. But I also believe the money aspect of it is what needs negated, not redistributing their wealth which is really the underlying issue.

Brenden wrote:loopholes that partially enable the lower effective rates are never really gotten rid of despite the political rhetoric.

Site examples please. Most have been eliminated (withstanding corporate tax law and even that is changing fast).

Sorry but still reeks of "covet thy neighbors' goods".
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Re: What made your day / made you smile today?

Unread postby mxguy01 » 9 April 2018, 22:22

Derek wrote:If the FBI obtained a warrant to seize privileged communications from Michael Cohen, it must mean they already have some evidence of wrongdoing, never mind the the political pressure of signing off on something so high-profile. I hope the coming weeks will be as enlightening as they are entertaining.


And the FBI has never done inappropriate seizures in the past...
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Re: What made your day / made you smile today?

Unread postby Derek » 9 April 2018, 23:48

mxguy01 wrote:Really? Because I wrote "I'm not exactly wealthy". And my main implication seems to be that I put a few dollars away earlier so that I'd have a few more later. So sorry but that is BS.

The bulk of your post was spent describing how you were not personally deserving of an increased tax rate. You are a member of the middle class. No one was suggesting that rates be raised for the middle class. Pretty much no one ever suggests that. Certainly no one in this thread.

You, BP and Derek seem to want to insist I have a dim view of people at the lower end of the economic scale. <- this actually pisses me off quite a bit.

While you're busy accusing people of accusing you of accusing people, you might want to slow down and take a beat. I mean, say what you want about Brenden - for instance, I heard he cheats on René with Marmaduke when he gets tired of topping - but it's a categorically rare instance that I insist on anything, let alone something having to do with you or whatever worldview you happen to possess, and I have complete confidence that the written record will vindicate me in this matter.

Tax breaks for the "rich" have largely been eliminated. But rather their reduced effective tax rate is that the bulk of their income is from capitol gains and not earnings from employment. This is a good read - https://taxfoundation.org/why-capital-gains-are-taxed-lower-rate/

It seems like a semantic matter to consider what constitutes a "break" and whether they have been eliminated in recent years. Or not semantic, but a rhetorical exercise. Earnings and capital gains are only part of the puzzle. There's also the estate tax, pass-through earnings for limited liability businesses, the alternative minimum tax (the reduction thereof), caps on FICA/SECA contributions, yada yada yada. And while something like the corporate income tax (which is being slashed) isn't considered part of personal taxes, the reality is complicated when you consider that after-tax earnings tend to be rolled over into compensation for select individuals. Capital gains, of course, occur at the point of sale; the appreciation of capital assets accounts for a huge amount of the so-called "wealth gap" in this country, and they mostly represent an untapped source of tax revenue that tends to be valuated only when circumstances are favorable.

Now, I don't pretend to have a comprehensive understanding of our tax system. I don't even really have an opinion on its overall quality. But I do know that the bulk of it is designed to facilitate the workings of finance at the tallest scale. What the top income bracket rate is (a cut of 4.9% this year, I believe) is barely relevant.

I'm sure someone like Brenden has more directed points to make. Mine is just that it's complicated.

Oh, and BTW, revenue gains of the .001% of wage earners from higher taxes would not add up to a hill of beans compared to the overall tax collected from the population base.

Wage earnings, of course, account for essentially none of the wealth possessed by the richest people.

Site examples please. Most have been eliminated (withstanding corporate tax law and even that is changing fast).

As far as I know, the gist of Trump's tax plan was to increase the percentage of people who take the standard exemption. Despite that, the same rules remain in effect for charitable contributions, capital losses, and mortgage interest, while they have been expanded for medical expenses, child care credits, estate tax exemptions, and state and local tax exemptions. My job certainly won't be getting any easier.

It might surprise you to learn that people who teeter between itemizing and the standard exemption aren't what one would normally consider members of the financial elite. When I imagine "loopholes", I imagine items relating to corporate and business income - stuff like interest and depreciation expenses, foreign holdings, and the all-important capital gains.

But the new tax plan does eliminate the deduction for alimony, so... you know.

mxguy01 wrote:
Derek wrote:If the FBI obtained a warrant to seize privileged communications from Michael Cohen, it must mean they already have some evidence of wrongdoing, never mind the the political pressure of signing off on something so high-profile. I hope the coming weeks will be as enlightening as they are entertaining.


And the FBI has never done inappropriate seizures in the past...

Unless you're imagining a complete breakdown in judicial procedure, I don't know what you're implying. I mean, even if they forced a federal judge to sign a warrant by holding a gun to his head, I don't know what they would hope to gain by acting in bad faith.
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Re: What made your day / made you smile today?

Unread postby Brenden » 10 April 2018, 00:07

mxguy01 wrote:
Brenden wrote:As Derek alluded to, you seem to assume that "rich people" includes you

Really? Because I wrote "I'm not exactly wealthy".

Yet you get all defensive when I mention rich people avoiding taxes.

mxguy01 wrote:
Brenden wrote:anecdotal self
Sorry but completely factual. In addition, you seem to completely miss the point but rather blindly be insistent upon purely your narrow view of it.

Look up the word.

mxguy01 wrote:
Brenden wrote:an ridiculous caricature of a poor person

Um, please show me where I posted any such thing. You, BP and Derek seem to want to insist I have a dim view of people at the lower end of the economic scale. <- this actually pisses me off quite a bit. I will say I don't feel one bit sorry for people who are in the lower scale of the economy, who spend time bitching about it, but yet don't do a single thing to work towards doing something about it. WalMart jobs and such were never meant to support a family.

Do you hear yourself? You're doing what you just said you don't do in the same paragraph.

"someone who chooses to slide through life doing little for themselves" That's a caricature. The straw man you're comparing your life story to.

mxguy01 wrote:Sorry but still reeks of "covet thy neighbors' goods".

You reek of survivorship bias.

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Re: What made your day / made you smile today?

Unread postby CaneTuck » 10 April 2018, 01:18

I assumed this was supposed to be a thread of stuff that made us smile today; apparently my assumption was incorrect.

But anyway, here's a cute video I saw today :)

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Re: What made your day / made you smile today?

Unread postby Jzone » 10 April 2018, 02:04

One thing to learn, CaneTuck, is that we reserve the right to get off-topic ad infinitum. Any attempt to get back on track may either be resented or appreciated. Cute dog video :)
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Re: What made your day / made you smile today?

Unread postby mxguy01 » 10 April 2018, 03:31

While you're busy accusing people of accusing you of accusing people, you might want to slow down and take a beat. I mean, say what you want about Brenden - for instance, I heard he cheats on René with Marmaduke when he gets tired of topping - but it's a categorically rare instance that I insist on anything, let alone something having to do with you or whatever worldview you happen to possess, and I have complete confidence that the written record will vindicate me in this matter.

First, my apologies for that was wrong of me. I read something yesterday, took it the wrong way I think after I re-read it today. I really do think pretty highly of the people here. I think I've made that known and I still think that way.

Yet you get all defensive when I mention rich people avoiding taxes.

No, more that I'm hugely in favor of a flat tax. Now I do believe there needs to be some consideration for people who are not yet making a "living wage", but past that - flat tax rate. Some basic ability for deductions (like the current medical deduction) to offset financial type hardships. The important part is everyone bares the burden fairly. You make more, you pay more; you make less, you pay less. Again, going after the .001% is not going to help. And it just seems like targeting that group rather than being fair. Now, if your referring to the ability to hide money at that level (off short accounts, but hey I could do that, doesn't take the rich, but I get the rest). Yes that needs fixed. IMO a sliding tax scale hurts the middle class the most, and yes I am part of that demographic.

I'd also point out many of that .001%, do give substantial amounts back to the communities (Gates, Packards, Carnegie, Mellons, Zuckerberg). Unfortunately many do not. But I don't think it is for us to tax them into that.

Unless you're imagining a complete breakdown in judicial procedure, I don't know what you're implying. I mean, even if they forced a federal judge to sign a warrant by holding a gun to his head, I don't know what they would hope to gain by acting in bad faith.

Meaning it would not be the first time the FBI acted on bad information. Also that I'll just wait for the facts before assuming anything. f I let my mind make assumptions about Trump they wouldn't be good so best to wait for details and facts.

It might surprise you to learn that people who teeter between itemizing and the standard exemption aren't what one would normally consider members of the financial elite. When I imagine "loopholes", I imagine items relating to corporate and business income - stuff like interest and depreciation expenses, foreign holdings, and the all-important capital gains.

Which a sliding tax scale does not actually address these issues.

Do you hear yourself? You're doing what you just said you don't do in the same paragraph.

"someone who chooses to slide through life doing little for themselves" That's a caricature. The straw man you're comparing your life story to.

Yep, sounded bad. But you are pulling from two different posts and taking about different circumstances. A couple points I should have said to express my thoughts better in that area: Sliding tax rates are not helping people in the poor class. We need to get them the help they need so they can at least move to a living wage if not better. Education, training, job seeking assistance, and much much more is needed. That group I mentioned, I think they are the small portion but they are the ones that stand out. I think most trapped in said situation bear through it silently and in many cases with much despair. I also think of it like the drug situation, longer you are in that situation, the farther you go down that path, the harder it is to get out. Education! Target the youth now for a better future.

I firmly believe there is a place in this world for everyone. To this instance I will add that place should not be poverty. I think we can do a far better job helping people in that situation. There will also be those who simply choose to not help themselves but hopefully that is a very small percentage. I also think a sliding tax rate does nothing to address the fundamental issue causing the problem. Some of that is convincing people to take advantage of things that are already available to them. And yes, we need to make more real help available for them as well.

Well I put my foot deep enough into my mouth for one night.

Good night to all!
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Re: What made your day / made you smile today?

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 10 April 2018, 04:03

I think the fact that you said your personal narrative based on unguarded recollection is “completely factual” tells us all we need to know here. There’s a reason why anecdotal evidence is held with such skepticism among academic researchers. You are susceptible to a myriad of biases and other psychological phenomena that make your summary of events less than accurate.

Since you seem to have a fondness for anecdotes, allow me use one to contextualize yours.

Here is a brief description of Person A. Person A is an alert and curious individual. At a young age he patiently tried to resolve computer problems by studying their origin and why certain fixes work as they do. He moreover had the foresight to expand his self-taught knowledge by taking courses in high school and in college to become more competent and proficient. Person A is a male who avoided producing unwanted pregnancies in his teens and twenties, unlike a few of his friends who became unplanned fathers at an early age, allowing him to focus on his academics and subsequent career. After college he immediately began working in a corporate research firm and segued into different jobs until landing a job that nearly pays him six figures.

Here is a brief description of Person B. Person B, like most humans, is a hedonist. Though he too did not get any girls pregnant this was mere dumb luck, as his sexual behavior was not all that different from his friends who did beget unexpected offspring; he had bareback sex with immature and arguably crazy women that thankfully for him did not result in anything other than a succession of orgasms. Person B is incredibly lucky, so much so that he went through most of his 20s not working at all, profiting off the relative success of his parents who provided him with a new car in his teens and another later in his college years, received a steady allowance and had his college tuition and related expenses fully paid for such that currently enjoys no outstanding student debt. Despite his lack of job history, he managed to land a decent job after having a brief, random conversation with an elderly female neighbor of his who brought up vacancy she knew from an acquaintance. Though he was eventually let go from that job for seemingly unethical reasons, he managed to get back on his feet by having an internship director e-mail him another, better job opening. Person B is thankful of this series of events given that he knew how difficult it was to apply on his own—indeed he was unable to land a job this way. On one occasion, he managed to secure a better position at a rivaling company after the person who interviewed him for one of his jobs got fired, moved to said rival firm and contacted Person B telling him of the pay differential for the same set of skills.

What do you think of both these individuals? They are, in fact, the same person. I have merely described one of my best friends from childhood whom I have had the privilege of witnessing his progression through life. I separated him into two stories—two perspectives—for a variety of reasons, and I will not exhaust them all here but I will expound on a few. If my friend had only told you his story as viewed through the lens of Person A, it would not necessarily mean that my friend was being willfully deceptive. Indeed many people see themselves as primarily self-made individuals, having achieved modest success in life principally through hard work, discipline and a bit of grit, excluding random events which are pure happenstances (e.g, a committed teacher who steered them out of trouble, an early promotion thanks to a friend or family connection, the luxury of a second chance, the neighborhood they were raised in and the decent peers they were exposed to within it, the parents they randomly got). Many people do this subconsciously. Some may exclude them from memory because it didn’t come to them right away. One way in which people make judgments and evaluations about themselves and about others comes from what academics call the availability heuristic. When we build narratives about how the world works, we rely more heavily on information that happens to be more accessible from memory, but that almost guarantees that our accounts will be biased since some types of information are far more readily accessible than others. For instance, events that work to our disadvantage are easier to recall, and we spot the advantages others enjoy (that we don’t) and the difficulties we fact (that others don’t). Moreover, by emphasizing talent and hard work to the exclusion of all other factors, people who are even just modestly successful may be trying to reinforce their claim to the money they have earned.

There is no question that one typically needs to apply oneself—to be disciplined, to be hardworking, to have a go-getter attitude, and so forth—to succeed. Very few people achieve greatness by staying in bed and never venturing out into the world to do some heavy lifting. But it is equally true that these ingredients to success, while necessary, are not sufficient. There are plenty of poor people who are hardworking. Single mothers who work multiple jobs come to mind. More to the point, rich kids make bad decisions all the time; they just don’t come with the same sort of consequences. The view of oneself as complex and a positive role model while others as one-dimensional with intrinsic character flaws (e.g., laziness) is what psychologists refer to as the fundamental attribution error and it’s what makes your view not only problematic (when held collectively in a society) and incomplete (ironically, lazy), but props up a false dichotomy that is, as Brenden put it best, a caricature.
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Re: What made your day / made you smile today?

Unread postby Derek » 10 April 2018, 04:56

mxguy01 wrote:No, more that I'm hugely in favor of a flat tax. Now I do believe there needs to be some consideration for people who are not yet making a "living wage", but past that - flat tax rate. Some basic ability for deductions (like the current medical deduction) to offset financial type hardships.

Then I'm more of a right-winger than you, because I don't approve of the medical deduction, or any deduction which alters market processes, except in the case of certain items with a public interest (clean energy, for example). However, I don't think a flat tax is a realistic or appropriate solution. For one thing, a flat tax wouldn't allow policy makers any flexibility adjusting capital gains, carry-through earnings, or other income taxes without affecting the relative value of earned income, which is the mainstay of the lower and middle classes. For another, it would be certain to reduce tax revenue overall while shifting the burden down the socioeconomic ladder, which would be something of a double-whammy for the economy's general health.

Again, going after the .001% is not going to help.

.001% is, like, 3,300 people. I have no idea what point that proves.

Which a sliding tax scale does not actually address these issues.

A sliding tax just gives us tax brackets. A flat tax per se has no bearing on the existence of exemptions, deductions, credits, what have you.

poolerboy0077 wrote:

I think it's funny that we have completely different things to say in response to that mess.
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Re: What made your day / made you smile today?

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 10 April 2018, 06:26

Derek wrote:I think it's funny that we have completely different things to say in response to that mess.

Let’s make out.
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Re: What made your day / made you smile today?

Unread postby PopTart » 10 April 2018, 11:12

mxguy01 wrote:
Brenden wrote:an ridiculous caricature of a poor person

Um, please show me where I posted any such thing. You, BP and Derek seem to want to insist I have a dim view of people at the lower end of the economic scale. <- this actually pisses me off quite a bit. I will say I don't feel one bit sorry for people who are in the lower scale of the economy, who spend time bitching about it, but yet don't do a single thing to work towards doing something about it. WalMart jobs and such were never meant to support a family.

Just to wade in here, but most people don't choose to be stuck in dead end jobs with low rates fo pay and few prospects. You made it out, you commited to hard work and effort and got lucky, I've met and known people, who have tried just as hard, worked just as hard but never got the right breaks or had their effort recognised. I've seen such people, become prisoners to circumstances beyond their control and give up in the face of seeming futility.

I empathise with those people, it isn't always about having the right attitiude, it can be as much about having apititude (and some people might have been failed by parents and the education system) being recognised by the right people and having hte right kind of support at the right time, being in the right environment for a desire for success to be translated into actionable success.

Pouring scorn on those that either have given up having tried or perhaps, never tried for fear of failing, isn't kind. Sometimes those people, who have spent a good chunck of their lifetimes, working hard but never getting anywhere (for whatever reason) actually have something to say when they are bitching, they are trying to highlight, that maybe, some things in society need to change, dismissing them as "Losers, whiners and Slackers" (not your words, but ones i've heard used in such arguements of this nature) is often the recourse of those who don't give a fuck, either because they've made it and feel others should simply emulate their success (doesn't work that way) or never wanted to change things int he first place as the current system benefits them.

Not saying your one of those people, but, well maybe the first one, you made it and I think you sometimes don't get why others don't just put their minds to it and do the same. There can be a multitude of reasons why others might try but fail or might fail to try, for lack of understanding or opportunity.
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Re: What made your day / made you smile today?

Unread postby mxguy01 » 10 April 2018, 14:33

PopTart wrote:
mxguy01 wrote:
Brenden wrote:an ridiculous caricature of a poor person

Um, please show me where I posted any such thing. You, BP and Derek seem to want to insist I have a dim view of people at the lower end of the economic scale. <- this actually pisses me off quite a bit. I will say I don't feel one bit sorry for people who are in the lower scale of the economy, who spend time bitching about it, but yet don't do a single thing to work towards doing something about it. WalMart jobs and such were never meant to support a family.

Just to wade in here, but most people don't choose to be stuck in dead end jobs with low rates fo pay and few prospects. You made it out, you commited to hard work and effort and got lucky, I've met and known people, who have tried just as hard, worked just as hard but never got the right breaks or had their effort recognised. I've seen such people, become prisoners to circumstances beyond their control and give up in the face of seeming futility.

I empathise with those people, it isn't always about having the right attitiude, it can be as much about having apititude (and some people might have been failed by parents and the education system) being recognised by the right people and having hte right kind of support at the right time, being in the right environment for a desire for success to be translated into actionable success.

Pouring scorn on those that either have given up having tried or perhaps, never tried for fear of failing, isn't kind. Sometimes those people, who have spent a good chunck of their lifetimes, working hard but never getting anywhere (for whatever reason) actually have something to say when they are bitching, they are trying to highlight, that maybe, some things in society need to change, dismissing them as "Losers, whiners and Slackers" (not your words, but ones i've heard used in such arguements of this nature) is often the recourse of those who don't give a fuck, either because they've made it and feel others should simply emulate their success (doesn't work that way) or never wanted to change things int he first place as the current system benefits them.

Not saying your one of those people, but, well maybe the first one, you made it and I think you sometimes don't get why others don't just put their minds to it and do the same. There can be a multitude of reasons why others might try but fail or might fail to try, for lack of understanding or opportunity.


But see, we agree on the above, completely. The people you mention are the ones I'd like to see get more assistance. Better yet, I'd like to see less people start out in that trap. But there is a small percentage, and I hope for it to be hugely small, that just abuse the system, yes, simply because they don't want to put forth the effort to support themselves in a better way. The small group I refer to are exclusive to everyone you point out above. More so, I don't see a moral responsibility to assist the latter; the group(s) you point out however I think it is our moral responsibility to assist.

And again, raising the tax rate for "filthy rich" doesn't fix the real issue. And yes, a couple successive posts about "fine them heavier" and "tax them heavier" just reeks of targeting them specifically and that is also unfair.

To the point of Person A and Person B. Intentionally specific details (negative one side, positive the other) were left out in both cases, rather selectively at that to create an example to justify your opinion. Well. just like an ill formed survey, garbage in = garbage out.

Also lets do some math to see how .001" and 3300 taxed based individuals can effect the budget imbalance - kind of the real issue of tax rates. 3300 x a couple extra percentage points in taxes is not going to have any kind of meaningful impact on the budget imbalance. Which in reality means no additional services/support for the people who need it. In fact, it has been shown that reduced tax rates can actually stimulate the economy improving conditions for all. I'm pretty sure this will get flamed at (deficit increases, yea bad too) but it's hard to ignore what happens to the economy when we invest in it rather than just tax heavier.
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Re: What made your day / made you smile today?

Unread postby PopTart » 10 April 2018, 14:46

mxguy01 wrote:But see, we agree on the above, completely. The people you mention are the ones I'd like to see get more assistance. Better yet, I'd like to see less people start out in that trap. But there is a small percentage, and I hope for it to be hugely small, that just abuse the system, yes, simply because they don't want to put forth the effort to support themselves in a better way. The small group I refer to are exclusive to everyone you point out above. More so, I don't see a moral responsibility to assist the latter; the group(s) you point out however I think it is our moral responsibility to assist.

And again, raising the tax rate for "filthy rich" doesn't fix the real issue. And yes, a couple successive posts about "fine them heavier" and "tax them heavier" just reeks of targeting them specifically and that is also unfair.

To the point of Person A and Person B. Intentionally specific details (negative one side, positive the other) were left out in both cases, rather selectively at that to create an example to justify your opinion. Well. just like an ill formed survey, garbage in = garbage out.

Also lets do some math to see how .001" and 3300 taxed based individuals can effect the budget imbalance - kind of the real issue of tax rates. 3300 x a couple extra percentage points in taxes is not going to have any kind of meaningful impact on the budget imbalance. Which in reality means no additional services/support for the people who need it. In fact, it has been shown that reduced tax rates can actually stimulate the economy improving conditions for all. I'm pretty sure this will get flamed at (deficit increases, yea bad too) but it's hard to ignore what happens to the economy when we invest in it rather than just tax heavier.

THe person A & B thing was actually Pooler's comment, but I think it does a good job, of highlighting how our biases and pre-conceptions influence our perception of certian people and the choices we "think" they make.

I suspect there are some, a very small minority of people who will take advantage of any system, in order to get something for nothing, but even amongst these people, I like to leave room in my estimation, for the possibility that there might be extenuating circumstaances or societal or personal challenges that push them towards making that choice and that it isn't just people being self and lazy. I guess it's possible but I want to believe better of people in general and be disappointed, than sell people short from the get go.

I do agree with lowering taxes having a boosting effect as more people have more disposable income and therefore more spending power, which stimulates stagnant economies. The problem ofcourse is inflation and treasury deficit due to a lack of funds. Meaning social initiatives can suffer (which can include basic services such as emergency services, sanitation, infrastructure. It's no simple issue, if it was, we wouldn't have so many problems with it.
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Re: What made your day / made you smile today?

Unread postby Brenden » 10 April 2018, 15:15

mxguy01 wrote:Also lets do some math to see how .001" and 3300 taxed based individuals can effect the budget imbalance - kind of the real issue of tax rates. 3300 x a couple extra percentage points in taxes is not going to have any kind of meaningful impact on the budget imbalance. Which in reality means no additional services/support for the people who need it.

Yes, let's actually do the math.

The average adjusted gross income in 2012 for the top 0.001% of income tax returns — 1,361 — was $160,960,323. In total that comes to $219.1 billion, 1% of which is $2.19 billion. (source) The figure will have of course risen since 2012.

For comparison, here are just some cuts the Trump administration desires in their proposed budgets:

  • Corporation for Public Broadcasting: $445 million (20% of $2.19 billion);
  • National Endowment for the Arts: $150 million (7%);
  • National Endowment for the Humanities: $150 million (7%);
  • Economic Development Administration: $215 million (10%);
  • Manufacturing Extension Partnership: $142 million (6%);
  • Office of Community Oriented Policing Services: $286 million (13%);
  • Legal Services Corporation: $503 million (23%);
  • Environment and Natural Resources Division of the Justice Department: $123 million (6%);
  • Office of Electricity Deliverability and Energy Reliability: $262 million (12%).


You're woefully ignorant of reality.
Last edited by Brenden on 10 April 2018, 16:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What made your day / made you smile today?

Unread postby Brenden » 10 April 2018, 15:18

mxguy01 wrote:In fact, it has been shown that reduced tax rates can actually stimulate the economy improving conditions for all.

Wrong.

All you do is parrot right-wing talking points, with no intellectual curiosity or willingness to take in and process new information. Your brain is a rotten 30-year-old stew of propaganda going mouldy.
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