What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today?

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Re: What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today

Unread postby Brenden » 12 September 2020, 10:30

Magic J wrote:Can't we all just get along and smash the capitalist system?

I think it's no coincidence that identity politics really took hold as the Occupy Wall Street movement petered out.

Divide and conquer. Capital knows this maxim well.
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Re: What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today

Unread postby PopTart » 12 September 2020, 10:54

Magic J wrote:
PopTart wrote:Identity politics and the propensity towards negativity in the media.

Surely, nice things happen right? Surely we aren't all obsessing over our skin tone, our genitalia or whether we like the colours blue or red? We could hear about some of those nice things, once in a while atleast? Not talk about the things that set us apart, occasionally maybe?

It's probably asking too much.

Can't we all just get along and smash the capitalist system? Once we've retaken the commons, we can go back to hating one another. Authentically hating on our fellows for the first time in generations! It'll be great. :P

:GASP!: MARXIST! Where's my pitchfork?! Or my underpaid, over worked lackeys, armed with pitchforks? Release the hounds and be sure the servants are locked away from all the mountains of money the great unwashed could never really appreciate! i'm sure I'm missing some other stereotype here. But I don't want to go all out. :D

You a fan of identity politics?

Brenden wrote:
Magic J wrote:Can't we all just get along and smash the capitalist system?

I think it's no coincidence that identity politics really took hold as the Occupy Wall Street movement petered out.

Divide and conquer. Capital knows this maxime well.

I suspect the same, general dissatisfaction that led to the occupy wall street movement, is the same dissatisfaction that is being capitalised upon, by both right and left (politically and economically speaking) to stir up ill will and one of the means of doing so, is highlighting our divisions in the manner in which they do. Which is to say, creating and exaggerating adversarial and confrontational engagement, as opposed to campaigning for true mutual understanding and respect.

People being pissed about, alot of different stuff, are always easy to lead by the nose I guess.
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Re: What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today

Unread postby Magic J » 12 September 2020, 21:52

PopTart wrote:You a fan of identity politics?

That's a very broad question. Bit too abstract. "Identity politics" has fast become an empty vessel into which we all pour our greatest fears. ;)

But yeah, I can venture that some prominent currents seem to me to be a dead end. Some currents have been turned to reactionary purposes. Others have secured vast improvements for marginalised people of various sorts. Those underpinned by a more general critique of our society's political economy, and the inequality, social breakdown, and ecological devastation this necessarily creates, have the potential to be doubleplus good.

Ask vague questions, and one is liable to get vague, handwavy and borderline meaningless answers. Soz. :P
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Re: What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today

Unread postby GaySpacePirateKing » 12 September 2020, 22:17

There is liberal identity politics thats essentially about integrating sidelined people into positions of power. More female, black or gay bosses or politicians for example. I am not necessarily against that, but its not radical as doesn't really challenge the structures of capitalism or domination.

Then there is identity politics where people who are oppressed on the basis of gender, sexuality or race organise on the basis of that so they can fight back against patriarchy, homophobia or white supremacy. Usually these groups are Anti-capitalist and have an intersectional understanding of how oppression allows for other oppressions.

I support more of the later, but fuck it I might as well just say I support identity politics since people seem to throw it around nowadays in fear of for example black people organising against being murdered by police, because don't do that thats 'divisive' and can't we all just get along and only the working class are really oppressed and other oppressions will magically vanish once we overthrow capitalism. Well fuck that type of thinking.

The left has always been divided identity politics did not do that. The working class is divided and whether or not capitalism set that up it doesn't mean these divisions would be gone if we overthrew capitalism today. Its a deep trauma that needs to be addressed now.
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Re: What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today

Unread postby PopTart » 13 September 2020, 02:40

Magic J wrote:
PopTart wrote:You a fan of identity politics?

That's a very broad question. Bit too abstract. "Identity politics" has fast become an empty vessel into which we all pour our greatest fears. ;)

But yeah, I can venture that some prominent currents seem to me to be a dead end. Some currents have been turned to reactionary purposes. Others have secured vast improvements for marginalised people of various sorts. Those underpinned by a more general critique of our society's political economy, and the inequality, social breakdown, and ecological devastation this necessarily creates, have the potential to be doubleplus good.

Ask vague questions, and one is liable to get vague, handwavy and borderline meaningless answers. Soz. :P

:lol: You're quite right, the term identity politics is quite broad. Vague, handwavy answers sustained.

I refer specifically to the rise of polarising identity politics, the kind that emphasise differences as a means of setting apart, rather than bringing together. With no real idea of how to integrate these now extremely divergent and contentious groups into a working and manageable whole, able to coexist fairly, equally and with mutual respect.

I do recognise, that some people of an anarchic bent, find great delight in the perpetual breakdown of social systems and constructs, but I've never been one for anarchism. It's a dead end in my opinion. Reasonable minds ofcourse, can disagree.

I'm going to lift a quote from (of all places) the financial Times, for the main issue I find with identity politics, because it expresses my sentiment, more succinctly than I could and I'm sure you could do without me rambling for ten paragraphs, to essentially say, the same thing :P

"We want our group identities — as women, as gay people, as ethnic minorities — acknowledged as equal, but we also want them uniquely entitled to reparation and redress. It’s not obvious how a modern democracy can meet all these demands at once — in which individuals are valued as equals, their unique selves respected as special, and their group claims all receive equal recognition."

Identity politics, seems to have ceased to be about equality and living in a single society in which, all people are regarded as human beings first and anything else second, it has become a movement, in which our individual identities, increasingly stratified and subdivided into insular and strictly defined groups, can't even share the same space, let alone live together, as each group and identity, must be placed front and center and there is only room for 'one front and center'

Identity politics offers no real constructive alternative to the current social order, instead it simply seeks to break it down and has nothing to put in it's place. So I get why anarchists like it. It's also essentially populism, writ large. That thing so many liberal democrats claim to loathe. :lol: I was going to venture a guess, that the dead end, reactionary kind of identity politics you refer to might be the same ones I'm referring to, but perhaps best if I frame that as a question?

I really wish we could divorce the term 'identity politics' from the concept of 'equality politics'

Because I'm a massive advocate for equality, but I am pretty much opposed to identity politics.

I speak of identity politics of the kind that has consciously decided to set aside the fair and equitable principles of meritocracy, of blind equality (as in, not caring who you sleep with, what colour skin one has or where you come from) in favour of placing all importance on those facts, of promoting people for them, rather than for the quality of their character or accomplishment.

I don't see how capitalism plays into much of that, other than the fact, that rampant and unregulated capitalism has given rise to economic disparities that cause the dissatisfaction that fuels identity politics.

But that is a failing of governments and society to moderate itself. Not of capitalism as a principle. The flaw is inherent and well understood. It is we who allow capitalism to exist in its extremist and thus, disadvantageous form.
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Re: What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today

Unread postby Derek » 13 September 2020, 02:49

Identity politics is necessary because it gives us the language and framework necessary to advocate for the rights of Gamers™ and our pressing need to prevent developers from giving short haircuts to female characters.
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Re: What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today

Unread postby PopTart » 13 September 2020, 02:54

Derek wrote:Identity politics is necessary because it gives us the language and framework necessary to advocate for the rights of Gamers™ and our pressing need to prevent developers from giving short haircuts to female characters.

Hi Derek. :D
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Re: What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today

Unread postby Derek » 13 September 2020, 03:01

Derek is my slave name. My Gamer name is xXx_pwnz4nö0bz_xXx.
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Re: What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today

Unread postby PopTart » 13 September 2020, 03:11

Derek wrote:Derek is my slave name. My Gamer name is xXx_pwnz4nö0bz_xXx.

As in, sex slave? :naughty:
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Re: What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today

Unread postby Derek » 13 September 2020, 03:26

Please, I'm trying to have a serious discussion here. Did you know that there are lesbians in video games now?
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Re: What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today

Unread postby PopTart » 13 September 2020, 03:55

Derek wrote:Please, I'm trying to have a serious discussion here. Did you know that there are lesbians in video games now?

All you do is talk about women, these days.

You're such a feminist. :nag:
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Re: What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today

Unread postby PopTart » 13 September 2020, 04:02

Derek wrote:I'm trying to have a serious discussion here.

But I think I got your point ;)
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Re: What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 13 September 2020, 04:38

Derek wrote:Please, I'm trying to have a serious discussion here. Did you know that there are lesbians in video games now?

Sure, laugh it up. But as soon as video games are ruined with sensitivity, inclusivity and all that gay shit they’re all gonna go over to your turf and start taking up cooking and reading as a hobby. Good luck trying to have productive conversation in your book club while your usual nerds are slowly replaced with unhygienic neck-beards.
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Re: What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today

Unread postby PopTart » 13 September 2020, 05:35

GaySpacePirateKing wrote:I support more of the later, but fuck it I might as well just say I support identity politics.

So you would say you support the identity politics of Vladimir Putins nationalism?

Or any nationalism? :squint: :noes:

I guess Magic is right and broad sweeping questions do indeed lead to broad sweeping answers. Both are bad it seems.
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Re: What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today

Unread postby GaySpacePirateKing » 13 September 2020, 10:17

PopTart wrote:
GaySpacePirateKing wrote:I support more of the later, but fuck it I might as well just say I support identity politics.

So you would say you support the identity politics of Vladimir Putins nationalism?

Or any nationalism? :squint: :noes:


No of course not.

But yeah Putins nationalism or nationalism in general or much of the politics of the alt-right you could probably say is identity politics.

Does that mean feminists or lgbt groups or black lives matter is similar to the previous mentioned groups or movements?

No of course it fucking doesn't.

Going on that logic you might as well be against anything that could be described as politics, because some bad stuff is also politics.

PopTart wrote:I guess Magic is right and broad sweeping questions do indeed lead to broad sweeping answers. Both are bad it seems.


Yeah so does broad sweeping strawmen and pigeonholing your opponent. Which I think was magics point. I.P describes a lot of different things but to you its something to pour all your fears into until it basically just means 'bad stuff' then you can throw that around and if you can apply it to someone then you can go oh so you must be a nationalist then, you must support putin, you must like this bad stuff. You know pigeonholing.
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Re: What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today

Unread postby PopTart » 13 September 2020, 10:31

Back the fuck up arsehole.

At which point was I disrespectful towards you? At which point did I deem to use profanity and attack your person or make assumption about your character and proceed to generally act like an immature prat?

Exactly, at no point did I do those things in respect to you. Neither did I make broad sweeping generalisations about your over-all politics and then proceed to judge you for those assumptions, that I placed upon you. Because that is good faith arguement right there?

So why don't you crawl back into your arse backwards little hole, sugar plum :finger:
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Re: What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today

Unread postby GaySpacePirateKing » 13 September 2020, 10:35

PopTart wrote:Back the fuck up arsehole.

At which point was I disrespectful towards you? At which point did I deem to use profanity and attack your person or make assumption about your character and proceed to generally act like an immature prat?

Exactly, at no point did I do those things in respect to you. Neither did I make broad sweeping generalisations about your over-all politics and then proceed to judge you for those assumptions, that I placed upon you. Because that is good faith arguement right there?

So why don't you crawl back into your arse backwards little hole, sugar plum :finger:


And at which point did I say you were being disrespectful to me and at which point did I say say you were attacking my person or making assumptions about my character.
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Re: What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today

Unread postby PopTart » 13 September 2020, 10:39

GaySpacePirateKing wrote:
PopTart wrote:
GaySpacePirateKing wrote:I support more of the later, but fuck it I might as well just say I support identity politics.

So you would say you support the identity politics of Vladimir Putins nationalism?

Or any nationalism? :squint: :noes:


No of course not.

But yeah Putins nationalism or nationalism in general or much of the politics of the alt-right you could probably say is identity politics.

Does that mean feminists or lgbt groups or black lives matter is similar to the previous mentioned groups or movements?

No of course it fucking doesn't

Yes, it fucking does, because it all stems from the same human impulses you remedial little shit.

If you weren't so busy feeling self righteous, raging against the system like an impotent little cunt, you might stop for long enough to actually look beyond the surface.

PS. Don't fucking speak to me with disrespect. I have never done so with you.

I didn't say, you accused me of doing so, I'm saying the way you spoke to me, were those things. Had I spoken to you in that fashion, to justify such a response, fair enough, but I did not.

I will not put up with being spoken to, like the shit on the bottom of your shoe.

Learn to show some fucking respect and you might receive some in kind.
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Re: What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today

Unread postby GaySpacePirateKing » 13 September 2020, 10:50

How in the fuck did I speak to you with disrespect, what because I said 'no it fucking doesn't?' Really do you take that as the height of personal insult that it then warrants an avalanche of insults in return? Are you the fucking queen of England or something? I must show you the upmost of respect or something? Well you can go and royally fuck yourself.
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Re: What pissed you off and made you lose your faith in humanity today

Unread postby PopTart » 13 September 2020, 11:04

Yeah, I don't swear at you. Do me the courtesy, of not swearing at me.

The real insult and indignity, is that you proceed to make assumptions about my character and politics, not through enquiry or engagement, you jump to conclusions and pass judgement based upon faulty assumptions. Im sick to the back teeth of intolerant people like you, who think they have the right judge people, because they have dared to express something, you either disagree with or believe to engender a viewpoint (whether it does or not) you find offensive.

I'm sick of being called a bigot and lumped in with genuinely awful people, because you can't be bothered to do any real work to learn otherwise.

I'm sick of trying to draw people into meaningful conversation and have my only reward, be insults, poorly veiled sneers and erroneous judgements about my intent and motivation.

You, King are so much part of the problems you complain about, you just don't see it.

And yeah, I have an expectation, that when I conduct myself with others and show them civility, deference, respect and consideration, that they might afford me the same, does that make me the queen of England? Well maybe it should.

Thankfully, it sets me apart from the likes of you.
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