What's Cookin' Good Lookin'?

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Re: What's Cookin' Good Lookin'?

Unread postby Brenden » 23 April 2020, 10:19

John27 wrote:
Brenden wrote:my God, did they use bucketloads of lard back then!

I can imagine...

One of my grandmothers really loved her fat, including lard, and shortening (back then I'm thinking it was loaded with trans fat). It is no surprise to me that she had heart issues towards the end of her life.

The heart issues were probably entirely due to the shortening. Lard and butter have been used for thousands of years (and lard actually has less than half the saturated fat content of butter, not that saturated fats are all bad for you), but it wasn't until the 1900s that heart disease rates increased dramatically, peaking in the mid-1900s. It tracks with the availability and use of partially-hydrogenated vegetable oils.
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Re: What's Cookin' Good Lookin'?

Unread postby John27 » 24 April 2020, 07:16

Brenden wrote:The heart issues were probably entirely due to the shortening.


I'm not sure about that, but I think shortening and margarine were very likely factors. And I'm not sure she used lard that much, although I do remember having something she baked that she used lard in, rather than her usual shortening. (And I remember not liking the taste change.) As I think of it now, I don't remember her even using butter--if she did, it was only very occasional.

I'm not sure either butter or lard would be particularly healthy... But then I've heard some experts make cracks about some magazine article about butter: "Butter is back." [Pause.] "No, it isn't!" (Although I think I'd feel more comfortable with butter than I'd feel with hydrogenated fats.)

Past shortening, though, she tended to get cheap, high fat meat (cheap hamburger was a staple in her kitchen). I'd guess that had a huge impact on her heart health.
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Re: What's Cookin' Good Lookin'?

Unread postby Brenden » 24 April 2020, 09:53

John27 wrote:I'm not sure either butter or lard would be particularly healthy... But then I've heard some experts make cracks about some magazine article about butter: "Butter is back." [Pause.] "No, it isn't!" (Although I think I'd feel more comfortable with butter than I'd feel with hydrogenated fats.)

Many "experts" became experts reading now-outdated research and, because they already fancy themselves experts, no longer keep abrest of the most recent research. Older physicians are notorious for not keeping on top of the amount of reading that practice of evidence-based medicine demands.

Is Butter Back? A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis of Butter Consumption and Risk of Cardiovascular Disease, Diabetes, and Total Mortality
[…] Butter consumption was weakly associated with all-cause mortality (N = 9 country-specific cohorts; per 14g(1 tablespoon)/day: RR = 1.01, 95%CI = 1.00, 1.03, P = 0.045); was not significantly associated with any cardiovascular disease (N = 4; RR = 1.00, 95%CI = 0.98, 1.02; P = 0.704), coronary heart disease (N = 3; RR = 0.99, 95%CI = 0.96, 1.03; P = 0.537), or stroke (N = 3; RR = 1.01, 95%CI = 0.98, 1.03; P = 0.737), and was inversely associated with incidence of diabetes (N = 11; RR = 0.96, 95%CI = 0.93, 0.99; P = 0.021).
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Re: What's Cookin' Good Lookin'?

Unread postby René » 24 April 2020, 20:42

^And of course that also covers cream. I use cream and butter in/on things specifically for the now pretty conclusive health benefits in terms of diabetes prevention (and as a convenient source of calories).
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Re: What's Cookin' Good Lookin'?

Unread postby John27 » 24 April 2020, 21:09

Brenden wrote:Many "experts" became experts reading now-outdated research and, because they already fancy themselves experts, no longer keep abrest of the most recent research. Older physicians are notorious for not keeping on top of the amount of reading that practice of evidence-based medicine demands.


True. And I'd add with doctors one other problem: the coverage of nutrition in medical school is, from what I hear, abysmal.

That said, the experts I listen to make an effort to keep up on research, and analyze it.

I'm sure they aren't perfect. I'm sure there are areas of disagreement. Indeed, I watched videos of several experts talking at conferences, each of whom can voice an opinion. Sometimes there is a disagreement, which can be either frustrating--if I want an answer I can work with--or entertaining when I watch the show of experts fight it out among themselves.

I'm pretty sure that I've heard at least a couple of these who discourage butter cite current research that leads them to that conclusion--usually the impact of saturated fat on heart health. I have not heard any of them suggest use of butter. I also haven't heard any of them suggest butter or cream for diabetes prevention.
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Re: What's Cookin' Good Lookin'?

Unread postby Brenden » 24 April 2020, 22:59

John27 wrote:I'm pretty sure that I've heard at least a couple of these who discourage butter cite current research that leads them to that conclusion--usually the impact of saturated fat on heart health.

I wouldn't trust any so-called "expert" who lumps all saturated fats together (as if they're a singular thing) and states they, as if they're an evil monolith, are bad for any particular health metric. Coconut oil is one of the most saturated fats commonly consumed, yet cardiovascular health amongst populations that consume large quantities of it is pretty good, especially compared to populations that consume the Western Diet (a diet that has for the last half century been trying its darnedest to rid itself of as much fat as possible).

John27 wrote:I have not heard any of them suggest use of butter. I also haven't heard any of them suggest butter or cream for diabetes prevention.

Then they must not be abreast of research from the last half decade or so.

Such as:

Milk Fat Biomarkers and Cardiometabolic Disease
Whereas results from studies assessing cardiovascular outcomes are inconsistent, [odd-chain saturated fatty acid] biomarkers [of dairy fat intake] are overall associated with lower diabetes risk.


Systematic Review of the Association between Dairy Product Consumption and Risk of Cardiovascular-Related Clinical Outcomes
Moderate-quality evidence suggests favorable associations between intakes of total dairy, low-fat dairy, cheese, and fermented dairy and the risk of stroke; intakes of low-fat dairy and milk and the risk of hypertension; total dairy and milk consumption and the risk of MetS [metabolic syndrome]; and total dairy and cheese and the risk of T2D [type-2 diabetes]. […] High- to moderate-quality evidence supports neutral associations between […] the consumption of regular- and high-fat dairy, milk, and fermented dairy and T2D risk.


Dairy Components and Risk Factors for Cardiometabolic Syndrome: Recent Evidence and Opportunities for Future Research
Cardiometabolic syndrome (CMS), a cluster of metabolic abnormalities that increases the risk of cardiovascular disease (CVD) and type 2 diabetes, affects over one-third of American adults and accounts for billions of dollars in health care costs annually. Current evidence indicates an inverse association between consumption of dairy foods and risk of CMS and its related disease outcomes. Although the specific mechanism(s) underlying the beneficial effects of dairy consumption on the development of CMS, CVD, and type 2 diabetes have not been fully elucidated, there is evidence that specific components within dairy such as milkfat, vitamin D, calcium, magnesium, potassium, and whey proteins may be individually or collectively involved.

[…]

Fortified whole cow milk contains ∼34 g of fat/L, more than one-half of which is saturated (16) (Table 2). The most abundant SFA [saturated fatty acids] in milkfat are palmitic (16:0), stearic (18:0), and myristic (14:0) acids, which make up ∼44, 18, and 15% of the total SFA in milkfat, respectively (16). The 2010 DGA indicates that reducing saturated fat intake to recommend levels can help reduce the risk of CVD; however, the relationship between saturated fat and CVD risk has been brought into question (17, 18). It has been well established that milkfat raises serum HDL-C, helping to maintain an HDL-C:TC ratio that is inversely related to CVD (19). This ratio has been considered a better predictor of CVD than individual lipoprotein and TC measures alone (20, 21). HDL-C has been implicated in beneficial effects on CVD risk through reverse cholesterol transport, inhibition of LDL oxidation and subsequent inflammatory pathways, and prevention of cellular damage (22). This may explain why elevated HDL-C has been associated with protection from CVD, even when alongside elevated LDL-C (22). Furthermore, palmitic and stearic acids in milkfat occupy the sn-2 position of TG, which is typically the position of unsaturated fatty acids in plant oils (22, 23). The selectivity of pancreatic lipase to hydrolyze TG at the sn-1 and sn-3 positions leads to the production of FFA and 2-monoglyceride (22). Therefore, the unique position of SFA in milkfat may affect postprandial metabolism, leading to prevention of hypercholesterolemia and elevated serum TG that would otherwise be associated with consumption of saturated fat (22–24). The beneficial effect of milkfat on serum lipids may partially explain why milkfat, despite its contribution of SFA to the diet, has not been consistently associated with higher incidence of CVD (22, 25) or risk factors for CMS (25, 26).


And this is just a small selection of the studies that are available completely for free!

Note in particular the last study, which goes into some very specific and important details about how saturated fats are quite diverse and the specific ones in dairy fat are beneficial to markers of cardiovascular and metabolic health.
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Re: What's Cookin' Good Lookin'?

Unread postby John27 » 25 April 2020, 01:00

Brenden wrote:I wouldn't trust any so-called "expert" who lumps all saturated fats together


It depends on the circumstances and context. What I pay attention to is aimed at a non-expert audience, including myself. (While I take some interest in nutrition, and might arguably know more than many people--which is admittedly a very low bar--I am far from an expert.) For simplification, they will say saturated fat, with a clear understanding for the lay audience that it's in reference to, say, the saturated fats found in a particular food.

Then they must not be abreast of research from the last half decade or so.


Since other relatively recent research is cited, I'd have to assume they are making reasonable efforts to keep up to date.

And this is just a small selection of the studies that are available completely for free!


There are lots of studies out there. Problem is most of us are not equipped to be able to evaluate them. I certainly am not. Which is why I defer to experts. And listen to more than one person.

Note in particular the last study, which goes into some very specific and important details about how saturated fats are quite diverse and the specific ones in dairy fat are beneficial to markers of cardiovascular and metabolic health.


As I said, I'm not equipped to deal with studies. But I did note one thing: this last study "Dairy Components." The author section says this: Dairy Research Institute, Rosemont, IL

From what I can see with a fast search, Dairy Research Institute is a dairy industry organization. I have to question research that comes from organizations and researchers with industry ties.

I Googled a couple of the author names at the top of the abstract. I found stuff like:

Christopher J. Cifelli, Ph.D., currently serves as a Vice President of Nutrition Research at the National Dairy Council. In this position, Dr. Cifelli oversees the Dairy and Public Health research platform, the goal of which is to provide scientific evidence that can be used to protect and promote dairy in public policy.

]https://www.usdairy.com/news-articles/c ... er-cifelli


Note the "provide scientific evidence that can be used to protect and promote dairy in public policy".
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Re: What's Cookin' Good Lookin'?

Unread postby Brenden » 25 April 2020, 10:01

Well, I guess since there may be conflicts of interest, that changes the fact that saturated fat in milk is made up of palmitic, stearic, and myristic acids and it changes all the other well-cited facts. :rolleyes:
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Re: What's Cookin' Good Lookin'?

Unread postby Brenden » 3 May 2020, 12:02

It’s Sunday so I made maple-pecan oat pancakes for breakfast!

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Re: What's Cookin' Good Lookin'?

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 16 May 2020, 16:23

I know most of you are fat now because of the quarantine so don’t be holding out on sharing your baked goods with us! :nono:
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Re: What's Cookin' Good Lookin'?

Unread postby Derek » 16 May 2020, 16:35

I wish I was fat. I have dreams about it sometimes.
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Re: What's Cookin' Good Lookin'?

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 16 May 2020, 20:44

Derek wrote:I wish I was fat. I have dreams about it sometimes.

Liar. Post pics of your tummy to prove it. :oface:
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Re: What's Cookin' Good Lookin'?

Unread postby Brenden » 16 May 2020, 21:34

Made spaghetti carbonara the other day with vegetarian bacon and now used the leftover spaghetti today to make it with real bacon for lunch.
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Re: What's Cookin' Good Lookin'?

Unread postby MichaelH » 20 May 2020, 00:13

I'm no gourmet - I just boiled a potato and added it to a can of hearty sirloin soup.
My favorite breakfast is more fancy. I cook a potato, fry some bacon (next time I'm doing breakfast sausage) cook an egg until the white is actually white, mix the potato and sir them all together, melt some cheese on top.
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