When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's death?

Talk about anything and everything.

Re: When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's de

Unread postby Adam88 » 13 April 2013, 15:51

upthebracket. wrote:
Adam88 wrote:I guess I'm out of the loop, why was this chick so hated?

Giving your political leanings you might have quite liked her. As Prime Minister in the 1980's she oversaw the rapid closure of the mining industry in Britain (which was primarily located in Northern towns and cities) leading to long term unemployment due to existing miners not having the right skills to move into other services.

Lots of other reasons too, but that's the one most people have a gripe with.


Why in the world would I agree with that? I'm a conservative, I think EVERYONE should work. The more I hear about her she just seem like a cunt. Blue collar work is the foundation of a good society.
User avatar
Adam88
 
Posts: 1596
+1s received: 3
Joined: 14 January 2013, 09:51
Country: United States (us)

Re: When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's de

Unread postby Adam88 » 13 April 2013, 15:51

*NOTE* I have only heard about her from people who dislike her.
User avatar
Adam88
 
Posts: 1596
+1s received: 3
Joined: 14 January 2013, 09:51
Country: United States (us)

Re: When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's de

Unread postby Edward » 13 April 2013, 16:12

She was pro small government and privatising anything she could get her hands on (except the railway system, interestingly enough.) She despised trade union power and regulation. And like Reagan, was very pro-monetarism.

I'd say most of those qualities are very core-conservative. I may be wrong about whether or not you agreed with her though.

I've just got this weeks Economist in this morning and they're, as expected, very pro-Thatcher. I think I kind of needed that for a bit of balance and perspective. Given that most of the pro-Thatcher stuff I've been reading on Facebook and from friends is absolute tosh :lol:
Formerly known as upthebracket
Edward
 
Posts: 868
+1s received: 6
Joined: 21 December 2012, 00:54
Country: United Kingdom (gb)

Re: When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's de

Unread postby Adam88 » 13 April 2013, 16:26

upthebracket. wrote:She was pro small government and privatising anything she could get her hands on (except the railway system, interestingly enough.) She despised trade union power and regulation. And like Reagan, was very pro-monetarism.

I'd say most of those qualities are very core-conservative. I may be wrong about whether or not you agreed with her though.

I've just got this weeks Economist in this morning and they're, as expected, very pro-Thatcher. I think I kind of needed that for a bit of balance and perspective. Given that most of the pro-Thatcher stuff I've been reading on Facebook and from friends is absolute tosh :lol:


Meh, just sound like another politician to me.
User avatar
Adam88
 
Posts: 1596
+1s received: 3
Joined: 14 January 2013, 09:51
Country: United States (us)

Re: When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's de

Unread postby baileyscheesecake » 13 April 2013, 17:16

I hate that shit, Adam. Politics isn't just something that happens, it's something which affects human beings in their daily lives. Thatcher created a lot of unemployment black spots, increased income inequality, creating a lot of social problems. She also covered up some stuff regarding the Hillsborough disaster, which made it look like it was football hooligans who caused the problem.
Having said that, I don't agree with celebrating anyone's death, I never said that. I just understand why people are, and I think it's at least better than suddenly changing your opinion of the woman. This whole 'we have to be nice about dead people' attitude never made any sense to me. You can be as nice as you like about them, they're still fuckin' dead at the end of the day. It was such bullshit after that Jade Goody mong went. She was a racist, and a fame whore. I feel terrible for her children, but I couldn't give two fucks about her, and people are often horrified when I say that, even though everyone thought she was a spaz when she was alive.
User avatar
baileyscheesecake
 
Posts: 560
Joined: 29 December 2012, 06:00
Location: Galway
Country: Ireland (ie)

Re: When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's de

Unread postby Adam88 » 15 April 2013, 10:05

Lol, u mad?
User avatar
Adam88
 
Posts: 1596
+1s received: 3
Joined: 14 January 2013, 09:51
Country: United States (us)

Re: When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's de

Unread postby baileyscheesecake » 15 April 2013, 20:01

No... Sometimes I don't understand why certain behaviours are socially normative, even though they're retarded, so I vent.
User avatar
baileyscheesecake
 
Posts: 560
Joined: 29 December 2012, 06:00
Location: Galway
Country: Ireland (ie)

Re: When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's de

Unread postby Derek » 15 April 2013, 20:33

baileyscheesecake wrote:I hate that shit, Adam. Politics isn't just something that happens, it's something which affects human beings in their daily lives. Thatcher created a lot of unemployment black spots, increased income inequality, creating a lot of social problems. She also covered up some stuff regarding the Hillsborough disaster, which made it look like it was football hooligans who caused the problem.
Having said that, I don't agree with celebrating anyone's death, I never said that. I just understand why people are, and I think it's at least better than suddenly changing your opinion of the woman. This whole 'we have to be nice about dead people' attitude never made any sense to me. You can be as nice as you like about them, they're still fuckin' dead at the end of the day. It was such bullshit after that Jade Goody mong went. She was a racist, and a fame whore. I feel terrible for her children, but I couldn't give two fucks about her, and people are often horrified when I say that, even though everyone thought she was a spaz when she was alive.

Sure, but it's not like Thatcher was Hitler or Osama bin Laden or someone else one can justifiably denounce as unequivocally evil. The issues which made her a divisive figure are immensely complex and varied and cannot possibly be framed as a matter of good versus evil. For any particular political debate here (e.g. Did her policies cause unemployment? Were her taxation policies unjust?) you can easily find convincing arguments on either side. Whatever the reality of the situation, she tried her best to do what she thought was right. The way people are celebrating her death is a sad reminder of how rigid ideology influences many people.
User avatar
Derek
 
Posts: 6883
+1s received: 2674
Joined: 21 December 2012, 02:12
Country: United States (us)

Re: When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's de

Unread postby Hadrian » 16 April 2013, 06:21

baileyscheesecake wrote:I hate that shit, Adam. Politics isn't just something that happens, it's something which affects human beings in their daily lives. Thatcher created a lot of unemployment black spots, increased income inequality, creating a lot of social problems. She also covered up some stuff regarding the Hillsborough disaster, which made it look like it was football hooligans who caused the problem.
Having said that, I don't agree with celebrating anyone's death, I never said that. I just understand why people are, and I think it's at least better than suddenly changing your opinion of the woman. This whole 'we have to be nice about dead people' attitude never made any sense to me. You can be as nice as you like about them, they're still fuckin' dead at the end of the day. It was such bullshit after that Jade Goody mong went. She was a racist, and a fame whore. I feel terrible for her children, but I couldn't give two fucks about her, and people are often horrified when I say that, even though everyone thought she was a spaz when she was alive.


True story. I always vent when people tell me they "don't do politics" or are "anti-politics". Guess what? This isn't a system you can just opt out of because you're too lazy to do some research. Unless you want to completely exit society, which would involve moving to a territory out of the bounds of society (deep arctic wilderness or maybe a nice tiny island somewhere) you're part of this, whether you want to be or not.

That being said, my first instinct is "no". Even if you hated everything someone stood for, to celebrate their death is just low. It may not be morally reprehensible, but it shows you have little character and even less of a sense of decency. Long story short, it doesn't make the person whose death you're celebrating look bad, it makes you look bad, and terribly so. In extreme cases (Hitler?) possibly - I won't say never - but by and large, no.
For we ourselves the cubits warp, for fear to be a king.
User avatar
Hadrian
 
Posts: 207
+1s received: 3
Joined: 22 December 2012, 04:24
Location: LA
Country: United States (us)

Re: When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's de

Unread postby baileyscheesecake » 16 April 2013, 17:31

Derek wrote:
baileyscheesecake wrote:I hate that shit, Adam. Politics isn't just something that happens, it's something which affects human beings in their daily lives. Thatcher created a lot of unemployment black spots, increased income inequality, creating a lot of social problems. She also covered up some stuff regarding the Hillsborough disaster, which made it look like it was football hooligans who caused the problem.
Having said that, I don't agree with celebrating anyone's death, I never said that. I just understand why people are, and I think it's at least better than suddenly changing your opinion of the woman. This whole 'we have to be nice about dead people' attitude never made any sense to me. You can be as nice as you like about them, they're still fuckin' dead at the end of the day. It was such bullshit after that Jade Goody mong went. She was a racist, and a fame whore. I feel terrible for her children, but I couldn't give two fucks about her, and people are often horrified when I say that, even though everyone thought she was a spaz when she was alive.

Sure, but it's not like Thatcher was Hitler or Osama bin Laden or someone else one can justifiably denounce as unequivocally evil. The issues which made her a divisive figure are immensely complex and varied and cannot possibly be framed as a matter of good versus evil. For any particular political debate here (e.g. Did her policies cause unemployment? Were her taxation policies unjust?) you can easily find convincing arguments on either side. Whatever the reality of the situation, she tried her best to do what she thought was right. The way people are celebrating her death is a sad reminder of how rigid ideology influences many people.

I'm not saying she was evil, I'm just saying I understand why people are... rejoicing. They're angry. She hurt people with her policies. It doesn't mean they're right to do so. As for finding convincing arguments on either side, of course you can justify her policies, the middle classes were made significantly more rich, the country's economy boomed. But, she was an elitist. She did what she thought was right, she made Britain overall far wealthier, but at huge costs for working class people. She was an elitist, there's no denying that. I don't believe in absolute good and evil, really, we all live in a grey area. In MY opinion, Margaret Thatcher was a bad person, do I believe she was evil and completely devoid of compassion, of course not. But she was a bitch. I'm not particularly sorry she's dead, and even though I don't think it's right to celebrate her death, I'm not shedding tears over it either.
User avatar
baileyscheesecake
 
Posts: 560
Joined: 29 December 2012, 06:00
Location: Galway
Country: Ireland (ie)

Re: When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's de

Unread postby Adam88 » 17 April 2013, 02:08

I'm sure she didn't purposely go out of her way to hurt people with her policies. I mean, she may have been a total moron, but I don't think she was just trying to fuck everyone over. I don't think anyone really truly is. Sure I'll bet a lot of people were hurt by her stupidity, but that's all it was.
User avatar
Adam88
 
Posts: 1596
+1s received: 3
Joined: 14 January 2013, 09:51
Country: United States (us)

Re: When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's de

Unread postby baileyscheesecake » 17 April 2013, 04:33

Adam88 wrote:I'm sure she didn't purposely go out of her way to hurt people with her policies. I mean, she may have been a total moron, but I don't think she was just trying to fuck everyone over. I don't think anyone really truly is. Sure I'll bet a lot of people were hurt by her stupidity, but that's all it was.

That's a cop out, mate. No one actually TRIES to fuck over the poor, they just don't particularly care when they do. She knew she was creating unemployment black spots, she knew that would lead to social problems. She just didn't care. Her policies made the British economy a lot stronger, so the middle classes were a lot richer, paying higher taxes and increasing her salary. Like I said, Tories aren't evil, they don't particularly want to screw people over. They're just selfish, and don't give two fucks provided they can earn more money for the already affluent. Her policies were self-serving, it's that simple. Of course she believed she was doing the right thing. In her mind, the average income of the good white Christian family was more important than a few miners in Yorkshire.
User avatar
baileyscheesecake
 
Posts: 560
Joined: 29 December 2012, 06:00
Location: Galway
Country: Ireland (ie)

Re: When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's de

Unread postby Adam88 » 17 April 2013, 14:09

baileyscheesecake wrote:
Adam88 wrote:I'm sure she didn't purposely go out of her way to hurt people with her policies. I mean, she may have been a total moron, but I don't think she was just trying to fuck everyone over. I don't think anyone really truly is. Sure I'll bet a lot of people were hurt by her stupidity, but that's all it was.

That's a cop out, mate. No one actually TRIES to fuck over the poor, they just don't particularly care when they do. She knew she was creating unemployment black spots, she knew that would lead to social problems. She just didn't care. Her policies made the British economy a lot stronger, so the middle classes were a lot richer, paying higher taxes and increasing her salary. Like I said, Tories aren't evil, they don't particularly want to screw people over. They're just selfish, and don't give two fucks provided they can earn more money for the already affluent. Her policies were self-serving, it's that simple. Of course she believed she was doing the right thing. In her mind, the average income of the good white Christian family was more important than a few miners in Yorkshire.


Maybe she just needed to get laid.
User avatar
Adam88
 
Posts: 1596
+1s received: 3
Joined: 14 January 2013, 09:51
Country: United States (us)

Re: When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's de

Unread postby baileyscheesecake » 17 April 2013, 18:01

Her husband was an alcoholic. My step-nan used to be a nanny for this fella who was mates with Dennis Thatcher, he would've had whiskey dick for defo.
User avatar
baileyscheesecake
 
Posts: 560
Joined: 29 December 2012, 06:00
Location: Galway
Country: Ireland (ie)

Re: When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's de

Unread postby McTaggartfan » 27 May 2021, 13:04

It never is. End of story.
User avatar
McTaggartfan
 
Posts: 493
+1s received: 202
Joined: 7 February 2021, 02:12
Location: Washington, D.C.
Country: United States (us)

Re: When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's de

Unread postby betonhaus » 27 May 2021, 15:32

I suppose if someone made your life a living hell out of malice the entire time they were alive, or if it was a distant relative you don't remember who gave you a lot of money in their will. But either way keep the celebrations private and a bit muted.
User avatar
betonhaus
 
Posts: 247
+1s received: 101
Joined: 14 January 2019, 00:09

Re: When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's de

Unread postby Brenden » 27 May 2021, 19:14

McTaggartfan wrote:It never is. End of story.

Even if that someone is actively committing heinous acts and their death means an end to the torture/death/carnage?
Disclaimer: All views expressed in my posts are my own and do not reflect the views of this forum except when otherwise stated or this signature is not present.

ImageImageImageImage
User avatar
Brenden
Administrator
 
Posts: 8921
+1s received: 3387
Joined: 20 December 2012, 20:12
Location: Lanarkshire, Scotland
Country: United Kingdom (gb)

Re: When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's de

Unread postby McTaggartfan » 27 May 2021, 19:54

Brenden wrote:
McTaggartfan wrote:It never is. End of story.

Even if that someone is actively committing heinous acts and their death means an end to the torture/death/carnage?


Quite right! It is acceptable, even natural, to celebrate the coming times of peace and comfort that would follow the death of (say) a vicious tyrant (e.g. Nero). Moreover, a feeling of great relief would also be appropriate and altogether fine. However, to rejoice in death, any sort of death, is morbid and indicative of a susceptibility toward cruel acts. It is inhumane—both in the normal sense of the word, and its older meaning of inhuman—to revel in death and experience pleasure over violence or the suffering of others. Some might say it is okay in such cases as you mentioned, since the dead individual was herself cruel or despicable. But I, for one, view such eye-for-an-eye attitudes and actions as far, far, beneath me. I aim to be a good person, and to maintain my virtuous character, at all points in time—not just when interacting with, or thinking about, other people who are themselves decent individuals. It is always better that a thing be good at all times than that it be good for only a short time. And that much is as true of people and their actions, as it is of objects and relationships.

As a brief aside, I am here reminded of a somewhat related poem by Edna St. Vincent Millay, which is entitled Conscientious Objector. The overall attitude and views she here expresses are much the same as my own.

I shall die, but
That is all that I shall do for Death.
I hear him leading his horse out of the stall;
I hear the clatter on the barn-floor.
He is in haste; he has business in Cuba,
Business in the Balkans, many calls to make this morning.
But I will not hold the bridle
While he clinches the girth.
And he may mount by himself:
I will not give him a leg up.

Though he flick my shoulders with his whip,
I will not tell him which way the fox ran.
With his hoof on my breast, I will not tell him where
The black boy hides in the swamp.
I shall die, but that is all that I shall do for Death;
I am not on his pay-roll.

I will not tell him the whereabout of my friends
Nor of my enemies either.
Though he promise me much,
I will not map him the route to any man's door.
Am I a spy in the land of the living,
That I should deliver men to Death?
Brother, the password and the plans of our city
Are safe with me; never through me
Shall you be overcome.
User avatar
McTaggartfan
 
Posts: 493
+1s received: 202
Joined: 7 February 2021, 02:12
Location: Washington, D.C.
Country: United States (us)

Re: When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's de

Unread postby Brenden » 28 May 2021, 09:22

I would say that retribution is ingrained in our evolutionary psychology and helped us build society. You can't have a cooperative society without punishment of those who transgress it, and feeling joy at punishment (death being the ultimate) is not only cathartic but reinforces the cooperative norm.
Disclaimer: All views expressed in my posts are my own and do not reflect the views of this forum except when otherwise stated or this signature is not present.

ImageImageImageImage
User avatar
Brenden
Administrator
 
Posts: 8921
+1s received: 3387
Joined: 20 December 2012, 20:12
Location: Lanarkshire, Scotland
Country: United Kingdom (gb)

Re: When (if ever) is it morally justifiable to celebrate someone's de

Unread postby rogonandi » 28 May 2021, 17:58

Celebrating the death of someone you don’t like seems petty and a waste of energy to me. It honours something not worth honouring. :|
Image
rogonandi
 
Posts: 2108
+1s received: 1403
Joined: 12 May 2016, 10:02
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada (ca)

Previous

Recently active
Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot], poolerboy0077 and 112 guests