Why more than 2 genders ?

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Why more than 2 genders ?

Unread postby Eos » 9 October 2019, 21:29

Hi !

I wanted to ask why some people think there is more than 2 genders ?
Usually the thing is that one person does not identify himself like the stereotypes of his gender.
The thing is, that there shouldn't be any stereotypes for boys or girls. And I believe there ain't any differences. Except for the body parts but that doesn't define who you are.
I mean, a lot of boys are differents, some of them will fit in boys stereotypes, some won't, but they are all boys. The only thing we should do is fighting those stereotypes.

Am I wrong ? I really am open minded so please enlight me if I missed something.

Very sorry for my English.
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Re: Why more than 2 genders ?

Unread postby Derek » 9 October 2019, 22:58

I think it comes from the idea that the male and female genders are socially constructed and largely arbitrary, so it makes sense that the dichotomy is also constructed and arbitrary. Still, I don't know what actually causes someone to identify as a third gender. Do they believe the third gender represents an identifiable archetype? Should it be understood as a Platonic ideal the way male and female are? Do they mean that the male and female archetypes are both so poorly suited to describe them that they believe it's necessary to be defined by their exclusion? Or are they just enticed by new and esoteric labels in the fashion of very-online teenagers? I honestly have no clue.
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Re: Why more than 2 genders ?

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 10 October 2019, 01:59

What’s weirder in my opinion is how furious people get over someone mentioning gender as a social construct. Like, I think it’s dumb and antiscientific, but chill the fuck out.
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Re: Why more than 2 genders ?

Unread postby Derek » 10 October 2019, 02:27

I think what makes them so mad is the notion that you should feel obligated to change your perception of someone based on their feelings of how they should be perceived. People are generally only willing to extend their consideration to the extent it fits inside the established social paradigm, and the idea of non-binary gender is still very foreign.

I think it's nonsense too, but it doesn't matter and it costs you nothing, so why not be nice.
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Re: Why more than 2 genders ?

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 10 October 2019, 02:53

Derek wrote:I think what makes them so mad is the notion that you should feel obligated to change your perception of someone based on their feelings of how they should be perceived. People are generally only willing to extend their consideration to the extent it fits inside the established social paradigm, and the idea of non-binary gender is still very foreign.

I think it's nonsense too, but it doesn't matter and it costs you nothing, so why not be nice.

I suppose they feel it’s distorted reality. It’s somewhat reminiscent of the “crimes against nature” rhetoric we’ve faced in the past. I suppose they would disagree that it costs them nothing because many of these same people feel they are being oppressed by political correctness, or whatever—that they can’t be honest, which to them means calling a biological man a man and vice versa and anyone who accommodate anything else is entertaining the delusions of the mentally ill.
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Re: Why more than 2 genders ?

Unread postby Eryx » 10 October 2019, 05:15

My personal opinion is...

Sex: there are three. Male, Female, Intersex. There are more genetic variations, but they're not representative enough to deserve their own group, it's all too close to Intersex.

Gender: should it be a synonym? Should there even be classifications? I don't really know or care. I've gotten to the point where any guy (read: born with a penis), regardless of his behavior, size, color or clothing, can get me hot if he knows what he's doing. Sure, I have preferences, and they're going to dictate how easy it is for the other party to get there, but in theory, any guy can. I don't include trans males because I do believe I would like to have a full sexual experience throughout my life and, being a bottom, a trans man cannot provide it.

So why more than 2 genders? Why not just getting that notion simply out of here, to be honest? And now I realized it's a rhetorical question: because there will be a loop; we'll get back to Male, Female, and Intersex. And then people are going to associate behaviors and tendencies with those sexes. And then some people in those sexes will say that they don't identify with those behaviors and tendencies because they don't align with them. And we're back to square one: gender.

So, for me, the notion of genders exists because people can't fit into only three sexes and they want to be able to name their variation to the closest proximity so other people will know more or less what to expect. Should it matter? Probably not, but for a lot of people it does. And humans love classifications.

I hope I helped with this opinion, I'm not sure if I was confusing...

Derek wrote:I think what makes them so mad is the notion that you should feel obligated to change your perception of someone based on their feelings of how they should be perceived.
I agree with this so much. That's never going to happen. It's not how we're wired at all. We can make it seem like it's what's going on, but our brain is thinking a whole different thing. Not to say that one can't just come out and tell us what they prefer, I'll respect it, but the first impression and the first deduction won't necessarily be what they're wishing for if they don't fit what the majority of people deviate towards.
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Re: Why more than 2 genders ?

Unread postby Eos » 10 October 2019, 07:50

Thank you all for your opinions.

I think it's pretty sad. We shouldn't be willing to go in a box. Plus those box have no sense to me. I won't learn anything from you if I learn you're a boy, girl or anything else.
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Re: Why more than 2 genders ?

Unread postby Eryx » 10 October 2019, 08:59

You say that, and idealistically it seems even noble, but the truth is that we do, and you will. If a guy is extremely (and I mean the word) effeminate, and tells you he enjoys lipstick, nails, drag concerts, mall sprees, fashion, certain clubs, magazines, shows, singers, that's him. I won't be interested in that. I really don't care. It's not like prejudice or a wall, it's just that his interests really, truly, don't apply to me, and I wouldn't be able to handle it. Maybe we could be friends if there was an intersection, but we'd be friends based on it, not on all of his other interests that I don't, nor will ever care about.

I feel like people noticed that they can do this with gender and use it for their advantage. You can understand a lot about a person when they tell you they're "androgynous queer." It means they like to navigate between the common perceptions of the sexes in their clothing, their speech, and their interests. Lots of people love that. I, for example, don't, so I'd be happy to compliment this person, but I'd also know that there's a lot I can't talk to them about and that we won't make a good match.

I don't see the problem with specifying. Maybe it's a better word than "box." And now they're calling it "gender" or "kin." Well, yeah, if a guy really does feel like a wolf when fucking, I'd prefer that he tells me he's a wolfkin so that we can just talk and enjoy a beer, I'm probably not going to bed with him. But I totally respect what he feels he is, it doesn't matter to me. It's only pertaining to him.

Telling him he isn't a wolf or that he can't just do that is pretty much what conservative people would do to anyone who comes out. A new thing, a new thing I don't understand, and a new thing I don't want in this world. But the dude is right there just trying to live what he thinks is the right thing at that moment. Do I have the right to pass that kind of judgment? Seems like an easy equation to me: whatever. Is he cool? That's all that matters.
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Re: Why more than 2 genders ?

Unread postby Yeauxleaux » 10 October 2019, 18:51

I think that certain aspects of gender are socially constructed. For example, there is no basis for classifying colours as "masculine" or "feminine". There's nothing inherently feminine about pink.

Overall though, gender is not pulled totally from thin air. Personally I define "gender" as being common generalised observations of the different natural behaviours between men and women. With that, there is convenient assignment of familial/community/societal roles based on these common observations.

The idea that there are general differences between men and women is only "oppressive" if you take it that way, or if you live in a society that rigidly enforces strict and unrealistic expectations of gender onto everyone.

On an individual basis, I think whether you are defined and recognised as "masculine" or "feminine" is about the total package that you present. The majority of people are somewhat (naturally) conforming and that does reinforce the general observations of gender. However there are individual quirks. I would probably say most people have something about them that is "atypical" of their sex and gender, either physically or in terms of behaviour, but in the vast majority of cases it's not enough to skew them towards "androgyny".

The problem is, I think many people in this "gender is a social construct" or "I'm Non-binary." crowd really have an over-simplified, child's view of gender. They think merely putting on a tie represents "being a man" or that if a woman prefers the ease of a short haircut, that means she's suddenly a dude or "part male". They also extend it to physical characteristics. Yes, there are lots of men who can't grow facial hair, but that doesn't mean they're "part female". They generally still have other male sex characteristics to fall back on that make them still unambiguously male. People usually look like what they are. The chances that someone can naturally (without monkeying around with their hormones) have ALL the typical characteristics of the opposite sex and none of those of their birth sex are very, very low.

Naturally androgynous people are also quite uncommon. Walk down a busy street in a large city, and tell me how many people you see who you can't immediately tell are male or female? It's a split-second, natural observation. We're not the same. If that were the case then why are the exclusively gay and straight people, and why are their trans people who feel they have to change from one to the other?
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Re: Why more than 2 genders ?

Unread postby NvM » 10 October 2019, 19:45

At least there’s is more than one or two boxes to pick from
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