Oscar Drama

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Re: Oscar Drama

Unread postby pozzie » 29 March 2022, 21:23

Yeah, I think Marmaduke wrote something like it's a fine line in the sand related to humor. I thought too about the guys who say things like, "My hair's gone from my head and appearing other places I never expected." (Hope you get the idea - I have never paid much attention to the line but am familiar with the concept.) Could that be tacit permission for that person to then be the subject of a public joke? I'm still thinking I hope I'll err on the kinder side of caution going forward.

Yes, I can see how a Roast is as you describe, PopTart, and have no desire to refute the characterisation. Maybe it's like those that see sporting contests - New York vs Boston, Manchester United v Liverpool, etc - as ritualized warfare. But one difference I see between most roasts and award shows is not only related to the format, but I think 1) those doing the roasting are usually friends and associates, so there probably is some level of trust-bond. I'm also guessing they come with prepared barbs that they've given thought to. 2) These awards show comedians are probably adlibbing a fair amount and we can't assume the same level of comradery. I've no idea if Smith and Rock have worked together in a substantive way nor do I know anything about Plemmons, Dunst, and Schumer. (I didn't know Plemmons and Dunst were together - same for Bardem and Cruz. Why? I really don't care on a personal level as I hope that have great happiness together.)

I remember celebrity roasts were a standard feature as TV specials back in the 70s and 80s. Are they still a thing on TV/cable? Seems like they kind of died out, but who knows with so many hours or content being churned out these days.
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Re: Oscar Drama

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 29 March 2022, 21:35

PopTart wrote:I'm guessing you mean, someone's agreeing it's fair game, by engaging in the same behaviour themselves? Because I've never known someone to pre-emptively volunteer to be the butt of a joke. And I've never heard of a comedian seeking someone else's permission to make them one. Don't really see that working.

You’re tacitly agreeing if you go to a comedy club or a Comedy Central Roast. That’s not the case at the Oscars.
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Re: Oscar Drama

Unread postby PopTart » 29 March 2022, 22:55

poolerboy0077 wrote:
PopTart wrote:I'm guessing you mean, someone's agreeing it's fair game, by engaging in the same behaviour themselves? Because I've never known someone to pre-emptively volunteer to be the butt of a joke. And I've never heard of a comedian seeking someone else's permission to make them one. Don't really see that working.

You’re tacitly agreeing if you go to a comedy club or a Comedy Central Roast. That’s not the case at the Oscars.

But how about someone at home, who is watching this kind of material?

If they find it funny when it's a roast, why then should it not be funny, say, at work?

Nothing has really changed. Someone is being made fun of. You saying it's okay to laugh only in certain situations? Because that's a mighty fine hair your splitting and I think it speaks more to moral posturing than to any kind of principle.

Let's not forget, that the Oscars has got a recent tradition of roasting, in the form of Ricky Gervais, who accurately called out celebrities during his several year tenure as host.

I dunno, this all feels a little bit like "safe spaces" to me. Places were people can safely engage in certain types of behaviour, outside which, a different social contract exists with different acceptable norms. I see considerable risks in dividing cultural mores in such a fashion. It opens the door to more dubious compartmentalism.
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Re: Oscar Drama

Unread postby pozzie » 29 March 2022, 23:05

Well I'm all for throwing out the babies, the bathwater, the bathtub, and the bathroom. I have no real use for awards shows even if they don't include drive-by roasting.
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Re: Oscar Drama

Unread postby PopTart » 29 March 2022, 23:15

Yeah, I wouldn't have even known it was awards season if not for this event.

And it's the only aspect of the whole event I've heard anything about.

That's probably the most damning indictment of the whole thing. Couldn't name a movie or actor that won and award and neither can precious few others. But everyone is talking about that slap.

So even if it wasn't staged, expect next years events to be equally noteworthy for the drama and not much else.
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Re: Oscar Drama

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 30 March 2022, 00:59

PopTart wrote:But how about someone at home, who is watching this kind of material?

They’re the spectator, not the recipient of the insult.

PopTart wrote:If they find it funny when it's a roast, why then should it not be funny, say, at work?

I have no idea what you’re talking about.
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Re: Oscar Drama

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 30 March 2022, 02:58

Can we bring back the GFO Awards? I want to host and have a few Derek Trump mom jokes I want to use before they expire.
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Re: Oscar Drama

Unread postby Derek » 30 March 2022, 03:03

Just tell me what they are, I'll text them to her from a burner cell.
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Re: Oscar Drama

Unread postby pozzie » 30 March 2022, 08:55

Is Derek's family name Trump? :gobsmacked:
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Re: Oscar Drama

Unread postby Brenden » 30 March 2022, 10:11

Marmaduke wrote:Would I have advised Will to slap Chris? No. Can I empathise with why he did? Yes.

So you can empathise with someone who goes from laughing at a joke to physically assaulting the joker as some kind of amends for the aforementioned laughter?

How does one empathise with insanity?
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Re: Oscar Drama

Unread postby Brenden » 30 March 2022, 10:21

poolerboy0077 wrote:
Brenden wrote:It's just hair loss. Why is it okay for balding men to be the butt of jokes about their hair loss and methods to hide or deal with it but not women? I thought we wanted an equal society?

It isn’t. I don’t think people should be mocked for their physical appearance unless they’ve agreed that it’s fair game. Will’s reaction was over the top, but a lot of people online are making it seem that because something is wrapped in comedy, one cannot legitimately be offended at anything ever. If it’s an insult, the fact that comedy is the vehicle used to reliever it doesn’t make it any less so. That’s all I’m saying.

Huge chasm between being offended and physically assaulting the offender.
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Re: Oscar Drama

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 30 March 2022, 12:13

Brenden wrote:
poolerboy0077 wrote:
Brenden wrote:It's just hair loss. Why is it okay for balding men to be the butt of jokes about their hair loss and methods to hide or deal with it but not women? I thought we wanted an equal society?

It isn’t. I don’t think people should be mocked for their physical appearance unless they’ve agreed that it’s fair game. Will’s reaction was over the top, but a lot of people online are making it seem that because something is wrapped in comedy, one cannot legitimately be offended at anything ever. If it’s an insult, the fact that comedy is the vehicle used to reliever it doesn’t make it any less so. That’s all I’m saying.

Huge chasm between being offended and physically assaulting the offender.

My rant was always about the former. I’he always noticed that most opinions I’ve come across regarding comedy seem to regard it as a shield against being offended. They equivocate the entitlement to free speech with just the good sense to not cross a line. Yo me there’s not much difference between hurling an insult and making a personal, insulting joke directed at someone, especially when they’re there in the room.
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Re: Oscar Drama

Unread postby PopTart » 30 March 2022, 12:37

poolerboy0077 wrote:
PopTart wrote:But how about someone at home, who is watching this kind of material?

They’re the spectator, not the recipient of the insult.
Noted, but you disapprove of the person doing the insulting, what of the audience that the insult is meant to entertain? What of them? All those Hollywood a listers were laughing along (though I suspect many of them, like Will, hadn't cottoned on to the "joke")

So I know you have insulted peoples intelligence or sense, on this site before. Less so recently ofcourse, so perhaps you have changed, but how is insulting someone for their intelligence (or lack thereof) or stupidity, when indeed, they may not have any real say over how stupid they are, any different from insulting someone's appearance? Aren't you guilty of doing the same thing? Is this a lesson you have learned from being a perpetrator of non consensual ridicule?

poolerboy0077 wrote:
PopTart wrote:If they find it funny when it's a roast, why then should it not be funny, say, at work?

I have no idea what you’re talking about.

I may be thinking back to similar conversation about humour we had before. You had some good points then too. But I still feel you focus on the person making the joke, over the nature of the audience the joke was tailored for.

If there wasn't an audience for shitty, hurtful humour, we would see a lot less of it. But clearly there is an appetite in the states, enough of one, to have an entire form of comedy format. Dedicated to roasting. (I think the appetite is universal and ultimately your moral stance doesn't really address the fundamental underlying reality such represents, but instead, merely denounces those that pander to it, rather than do anything more constructive)

I understand the distinction you make for those making the jokes and those that are the subject of the jokes. It has to be in some way consensual, it has to be tacitly approved by both parties and somehow (I don't really fathom how) it's not really intended to harm. Mhm.

But what of the audience. What of the plebs baying for gladiatorial blood in the roasting arena? Surely you have some moral pronouncement for them too?

Why is it okay, for them to take pleasure at someone else's ridicule, simply because the ridiculed consented? Is that all it takes to be okay, for a crowd of people, to coo with pleasure and derision, at seeing someone shamed and made to feel small? If so, then can we extend the same idea to other characteristics we find unsavoury? Maybe a comedy club where tacitly approved racism can be expressed? Or sexism or even homophobia?

I'm curious how deep this attitude goes and how broadly you would apply it.
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Re: Oscar Drama

Unread postby Marmaduke » 30 March 2022, 13:47

Brenden wrote:
Marmaduke wrote:Would I have advised Will to slap Chris? No. Can I empathise with why he did? Yes.

So you can empathise with someone who goes from laughing at a joke to physically assaulting the joker as some kind of amends for the aforementioned laughter?

How does one empathise with insanity?

You genuinely think Will Smith had a mental breakdown to the extent that his actions can be attributed to insanity? If you believe that, then surely you’re minded that he’s legally and morally absolved as he cannot be held responsible for his actions?

If, however, you’re not being deliberately obtuse; yes. I’d like to think I could empathise with most people to at least some extent.

Will Smith has acknowledged that he realises there’s an expectation that in the context, he would be subject to some extent of derision and it’s expected that he laugh along with it. He’s a multi-millionaire award nominee and the host is a comedian.

Jada was not there in a professional capacity. She wasn’t nominated, she was supporting her husband, she was there as a wife.

Will initially laughed, not because he thought it was funny but because he acknowledged the expectation on him in the context. Then he looked and saw his wife, having been mocked in front of millions for something she has spoken publicly about being deeply self-conscious about and something which is beyond her control. He knows her. They’ve been married for a long time and been through a lot together. He, more so than you, can see a look on his wife’s face and KNOW what she’s feeling. He would’ve seen she was hurt, even if she tried to hide it from the room. His wife was wounded for no reason. He responded with becoming defensive.

I didn’t see Chris Rock mock anyone else’s spouse, let alone highlight their deepest insecurity in front of the world, let alone do so completely without foundation or context. He stepped over the line, he wasn’t even funny, he was just cruel and unjustifiably so.

If you took René or Shawn to support you at an award ceremony and out of nowhere the host decided to openly and cruelly mock one of them in front of a room of your peers, you genuinely can’t see how you might be incensed? I would be. I’d be livid if I took René to support me and I don’t even love him (at least not in that way).

Is how he handled the situation how I would’ve handled it? No. Is that because I’m better than him? No. The red mist fell and it wasn’t unjustified in falling. I understand how he ended up in the headspace he did. He reacted the way he did and I can understand how he got there. Without condemning or condoning, I empathise with him. I can look at a situation that has nothing to do with me and remove myself from it in trying to understand it. You, it seems, cannot. Because it’s not what you would do, you chalk it up as insanity and seemingly cannot reconcile how it ever happened.

Or, you know, you’re being deliberately obtuse. One of the other.
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Re: Oscar Drama

Unread postby PopTart » 30 March 2022, 14:33

Yeah, I pretty much see it the same way and you know what? If I were Jada, it would have meant the world to me, to have my man, defend me that way, no matter how inappropriate that response was.

He might have made the wrong choice socially or professionally. But he did right by his partner. I could only hope to have a partner who would take that kind of risk and take that kind of stand, to protect my integrity and feelings.
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Re: Oscar Drama

Unread postby PopTart » 30 March 2022, 14:34

Double post but change of tone. The memes generated by the Rock slap are amazing!
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Re: Oscar Drama

Unread postby pozzie » 30 March 2022, 19:10

Brenden wrote:
Marmaduke wrote:Would I have advised Will to slap Chris? No. Can I empathise with why he did? Yes.

So you can empathise with someone who goes from laughing at a joke to physically assaulting the joker as some kind of amends for the aforementioned laughter?

How does one empathise with insanity?


I think I'd modify Marmaduke's original thought slightly: I can empathize with another's desire to slap ...

This still leaves room for self-control, no?

PopTart wrote:Noted, but you disapprove of the person doing the insulting, what of the audience that the insult is meant to entertain? What of them? All those Hollywood a listers were laughing along (though I suspect many of them, like Will, hadn't cottoned on to the "joke")


Let's not forget some of that might have been residual laughter from the prior joke. Sometimes a 'new' joke takes a moment to sink in. Also, there is always some nervous laughter. However, different inflections in the underlying reason for and manifestation of such laughter will be hard to distinguish in a large group setting.

Just as an aside, I've made it my personal goal NOT to laugh at another's misfortune when I realize they are hurting some way. I also don't stare at car wrecks and the like. Yes, I might try and get an idea of what happened, especially if I fear whatever might spread (say, a small fire) or I can provide some assistance, but otherwise, if I can't help I'd rather get out of the way. Gawkers too often add to the problem, and the person's misfortune.

I've also thought a bit about the reported ovation after Smith's meandering acceptance-apology mess. While I didn't see that part, I read the remarks. I can see why people only view that as approving or condoning what happened, especially since Smith wasn't removed from the audience, I'm not sure I'm willing to say that's only what was going on. Who knows, some might have been happy Smith didn't use his moment to launch into some tirade or try to score points against Rock. Still, I think an ovation was bad form, but I think there's a group dynamic at play that I don't fully understand in this instance.

One of the parts I found most troubling in Smith's acceptance was, and I most likely paraphrase, "Love makes you do crazy things." This has really bothered me. It reminds me of people who say, "But I know he really loves her," as they talk about her recent black eye. It just seems too normalizing or accepting to me.

Now imagine if, instead of The Slap, Smith had leaned over, given Pinkett a big hug and kiss, and whispered something really life-affirming into her ear that would hopefully have counteracted the sting of the barb. I wonder what the societal response might have been to that, and no, I don't necessarily think it would have been much better. I can imagine comments about Smith's masculinity being called into question.

This event has so many dimensions to it and I really appreciate the interesting thoughts, candid reactions, and fairly measured discussion we've been having.
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Re: Oscar Drama

Unread postby PopTart » 30 March 2022, 19:24

I think understanding why people laugh at others misfortune, at ridicule and the like, is the key to understanding the appeal of hurtful humour and understanding if demanding it not be practiced, even realistic or desirable.

I do laugh at other peoples misfortune. Well, not just randomly. Someone loses a loved one, i dont laugh hysterically. But sure, someone falls over and I'm gonna laugh. I laugh if I fall over.

And I laugh at cutting jokes that might hurt or humiliate. I laugh at jokes where two people are sparring and one gets the comedic upper hand at the others expense.

Generally speaking, gay men laugh at drag Queens throwing shade. The same gay men can go on to criticise other forms of negative humour. That smacks of hypocrisy to me.

And there is a vein of hypocrisy with the handling of the Oscar slap. Everyone is rushing out to condemn Smith and I've heard a ton of people saying nasty things about Jada and Will. So much for those peoples vaunted goodness. Apparantly it doesn't extend to their own hateful speech.

As for Will going too far. I think Marmaduke has the right of it. If it was your partner, what would you do? And what would your partner think of your reaction. I don't think a hug and cuddle would be the response I'd want from a partner after I had been humiliated and made the butt of a joke. That is the last thing I'd want.
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Re: Oscar Drama

Unread postby pozzie » 30 March 2022, 19:49

Well, that's one of the beauties of the human condition, there are so many, varied, perfectly acceptable responses. Not sure what I'd really like if I had been in Jada's place, but my life is at the "very private" end of the spectrum and I come from a family that is cold, argumentative, and distant.

edit: I'm not very excited by the physical response though - no, I wouldn't be thrilled my man was standing up for me. I live in a country awash with firearms and people who brandish them at the least provocation. This scares me.

I've really been thinking about 'humor' these past couple of days. I've come to see how my upbringing not only normalized humor at other people's expense, it was almost something of a prerequisite. It was learned by my siblings as well. Further, it gets reinforced by the crowd response mentioned above. But it has also caused me plenty of trouble in my lifetime and I can honestly say I wish someone would have clued me in to the hurtfulness a long, long time ago. And worse still, if anyone dared complain about the hurt, the response was basically, "Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke."

Really?
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Re: Oscar Drama

Unread postby PopTart » 30 March 2022, 20:25

Two opposite ends of the extreme poz. Not liking one extreme, might push you to the other, but it doesn't make the other any better.

There is something to be said, for having the strength of character to endure criticism.

Isn't that precisely what everyone denouncing Will Smith is getting at? That he should have been able to handle it better?

I tend to find that one doesn't build fortitude by being coddled. Protected from the harsh things. Instead it is exposure that teaches us strength of character.
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