"Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

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Re: "Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

Unread postby Derek » 29 April 2019, 23:34

He was just tree peeping when the Night King touched him. I really don't think that story is going to come back up. You can say his death was sudden or anticlimactic, but it came at the end of a long and very strenuous episode. What would be the point in prolonging it? There's only so much spectacle that can accompany a conclusion for all these characters.
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Re: "Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 30 April 2019, 00:06

Derek wrote:He was just tree peeping when the Night King touched him. I really don't think that story is going to come back up. You can say his death was sudden or anticlimactic, but it came at the end of a long and very strenuous episode. What would be the point in prolonging it? There's only so much spectacle that can accompany a conclusion for all these characters.

Maybe it isn’t so much that they’ll prolong the Night King’s storyline per se but add a twist about how Bran was really their rival all along? I feel like there just has to be some unexpected twist. It’s Game of Thrones after all, not a Marvel movie.
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Re: "Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

Unread postby Derek » 30 April 2019, 00:39

Games of Thrones isn't really about twists. Ned's death was shocking because it subverted the trope, not the narrative. And the Red Wedding was basically Ned v.2, after enough time had passed to believe that maybe Robb and Catelyn were the actual heroes of the story. But neither event was twisty. You might even say they were the likely outcomes.

I think the problem with the army of the dead was that it had a limited capacity to advance the narrative in a way that was satisfying and sustainable. If they had kept up until the last moment, either with the defeat of a character who has never spoken a word, or with the defeat of characters by one who has never spoken a word... it wouldn't make a very satisfying ending.
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Re: "Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 30 April 2019, 02:01

Those weren’t but what about the Mountain killing Oberyn? What about Little Finger’s death? What about Cersei blowing up the sept? What about Hillary’s emails? :oface:

But in any event nothing in this latest episode satisfies Bran’s purpose, which is why I’m holding out hope that they make his story worthwhile in an unexpected way.
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Re: "Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

Unread postby René » 30 April 2019, 10:46

I was very disappointed. There's so much that doesn't add up. Arya doesn't match the prophecies about the prince(ss) that was promised in either the books or the show.

I was kind of expecting the Night King to open his mouth and start speaking, or for Bran to say "Hello, old friend" or something.... :P
Just being killed in the way we knew he could be killed felt anticlimactic.

I'm sure the books will provide a very different and much more satisfactory ending, especially since the showrunners hinted it was they who decided Arya would be the one to take out the Night King.
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Re: "Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

Unread postby Brenden » 30 April 2019, 11:00

As I read someone else put it: Rather than do the expected and kill off more characters this episode, they decided to do the last shocking thing in their arsenal and kill off the story instead.

Let's not forget that the very first scene of the entire show introduced us to the Others, and the the overarching theme through the show has been a contrast between the petty political squabbling and the building existential threat.
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Re: "Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

Unread postby Derek » 30 April 2019, 14:14

René wrote:I'm sure the books will provide a very different and much more satisfactory ending, especially since the showrunners hinted it was they who decided Arya would be the one to take out the Night King.

I very much doubt the books will be providing an ending at all.
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Re: "Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

Unread postby RJD » 30 April 2019, 17:29

René wrote:I was very disappointed. There's so much that doesn't add up. Arya doesn't match the prophecies about the prince(ss) that was promised in either the books or the show.

I was kind of expecting the Night King to open his mouth and start speaking, or for Bran to say "Hello, old friend" or something.... :P
Just being killed in the way we knew he could be killed felt anticlimactic.

I'm sure the books will provide a very different and much more satisfactory ending, especially since the showrunners hinted it was they who decided Arya would be the one to take out the Night King.



I'm not certain how much I subscribe to this, but thought it was an interesting perspective:
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Re: "Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

Unread postby Severelius » 30 April 2019, 18:09

I'm just annoyed that Bran did nothing.

If they were going to have Arya kill the Night King, I'd have done it so that the Night King catches her out of the air and goes to stab her but Bran tries to warg into the Night King himself which throws him off for just long enough for Arya to get a lucky shot in to end it.

Or just have Bran warg into the Night King to make him kill himself with the dagger after Arya tries and fails to nail him with it.

Seriously outside of Jon and Bran no other character has any real connection to the Night King so it should have at least been one of them that had a pretty major hand in finishing him off.

ETA: For any issues I have with the episode it was bloody brilliant and particularly the musical score for the last long dramatic bit was fucking gorgeous and I've been listening to it on a loop on Spotify ever since.

Also ETA: I was thinking in broader terms about GoT altogether and I'm really glad the TV show has veered so far off from the books now. Cause I don't read book series until they're finished and in about 15 years when the final book in the series is finished by another author from Martin's notes after he dies when I finally get around to reading them properly it'll be like reading a totally different story the further in I get so I'll still be able to be surprised by it.
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Re: "Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

Unread postby Brenden » 30 April 2019, 20:12

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Re: "Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

Unread postby René » 30 April 2019, 20:56

RJD wrote:
René wrote:I was very disappointed. There's so much that doesn't add up. Arya doesn't match the prophecies about the prince(ss) that was promised in either the books or the show.

I was kind of expecting the Night King to open his mouth and start speaking, or for Bran to say "Hello, old friend" or something.... :P
Just being killed in the way we knew he could be killed felt anticlimactic.

I'm sure the books will provide a very different and much more satisfactory ending, especially since the showrunners hinted it was they who decided Arya would be the one to take out the Night King.

I'm not certain how much I subscribe to this, but thought it was an interesting perspective:

This feels a bit like Christian apologetics to me... fitting as many things about the prophesied figure to Arya as possible while ignoring anything that doesn't fit. It feels contrived to say the least.

Was Arya "born amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone" "when the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers"? Was she born of the line of Aerys II and Rhaella Targaryen? Etc.

Also note that the showrunners say they didn't determine it was going to be Arya until 3 years ago, meaning they didn't know it when Melisandre said the blue-eyes thing 5 years ago in season 3.
Also note that that was also consistent with her just killing one or several white walkers, like Sam did.

What that video describes is obviously the sort of supporting reasoning the showrunners are going with for justifying their ending, but the differences with what we've been told are really stark.

You may be interested in watching this video (though bear in mind this was posted more than 4 years ago):



Try applying those tests to Arya.

Personally, I'm partial to the theory described in a comment on the latter video:

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Bael Bard wrote:Rhaegar is Azor Ahai. Jon Snow is Lightbringer aka The Prince That Was Promised.

There were three attempts to create the sword according to legend.

" He labored for thirty days and thirty nights until it was done. However, when he went to temper it in water, the sword broke. The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart, but once more the steel shattered. The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew before hand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer"

Here is three attempts:

1) Aemon said, that at first Rhaegar thought he is the prince that was promiced. He died at the Trident. "When he went to temper it in water, the sword broke".

2) Later he started to think his son Aegon is the one. But Aegon was murdered under Tywin's orders, who wanted revenge on Aerys. Lion's heart.

3) After Azor Ahai (Rhaegar) pierced Nissa-Nissa (Lyanna) with his sword true Lightbringer was created. It killed Lyanna but her blood, her soul and her strength went into the steel.... Lightbringer is Lyanna's son - Jon Snow. He is The Prince That Was Promised and his song is The Song of Ice and Fire. And Azor Ahai is nothing more than his father.

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Re: "Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

Unread postby René » 30 April 2019, 21:27

Derek wrote:
René wrote:I'm sure the books will provide a very different and much more satisfactory ending, especially since the showrunners hinted it was they who decided Arya would be the one to take out the Night King.

I very much doubt the books will be providing an ending at all.

Call me an optimist, but I think it's very realistic. I thought it was less so when George kept saying how much he was struggling with TWoW, but lately he's been saying it's going very well, so he seems to have passed whatever hurdle he was facing.
It's his primary focus now; he's not writing other books at the same time anymore.
He also recently got a new official headshot taken, which has been interpreted by many as signaling the imminent release of a book.
I wouldn't be surprised if TWoW is actually finished or nearly finished at this point and gets announced soon after the show ends. I think it's more likely than not that a release date will be announced in the next 12 months.

Then there's just one book left. Let's examine the time he's got left to write it.

George is 70 years old. Sure he's obese, but contrary to what you might think, obesity appears to have no significant impact on life expectancy in people in developed countries who have already reached the age of 70. See e.g. here or here or here.

As of 2016, the Social Security Administration reports the remaining life expectancy of American males aged 70 as 14.4 years.

What this entails is that if finishing the book series takes less than about 14 years, based on the average case for an obese American of his age, the probability of this happening before his death is greater than 50%.
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Re: "Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

Unread postby Jzone » 1 May 2019, 01:55

René wrote:What this entails is that if finishing the book series takes less than about 14 years, based on the average case for an obese American of his age, the probability of this happening before his death is greater than 50%.

There is a difference between productive living and surviving to average life expectancy. I don't expect George to enter the final keyboard stroke on his deathbed. In other words... he better get on it.
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Re: "Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

Unread postby René » 1 May 2019, 10:41

Jzone wrote:
René wrote:What this entails is that if finishing the book series takes less than about 14 years, based on the average case for an obese American of his age, the probability of this happening before his death is greater than 50%.

There is a difference between productive living and surviving to average life expectancy. I don't expect George to enter the final keyboard stroke on his deathbed.

I don't either. :)
I don't think it will take him 14+ years. He's also quite active for his age, which can only improve his odds.

It is estimated that the average obese 70-year-old American man will spend about a third of his remaining life with some form of disability that prevents independent living. That still leaves almost 10 years to write a little more than 1 book in relatively good health in the average case, and it's not like most forms of disability would stop a prolific author authoring. Just look at Stephen Hawking. :D

To put this into perspective: he took 5 years to write the 4th book, and 6 years to write the 5th book. The 6th book will be 8 years if it's released this year. Even if he takes 10 years to write the last one, the odds are in his favour for finishing it before he becomes unable to.

Anyway, this was all just my argument for why it's "realistic" rather than "very doubtful". A lot of people seem to think he's an obese old man and therefore he'll probably be dead in 5 years, which is ignorant as well as ironically harmful to the chances of us actually seeing the books finished.

Jzone wrote:In other words... he better get on it.

He knows that, and he beats himself up over it. The thing is, he is the kind of person who thrives on positive encouragement and easily feels overwhelmed when put under pressure. A lot of people are downright angry with him, and he's angry with himself, which isn't helping.

I think he's much more likely to finish the books if people give him love and support rather than impatience.
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Re: "Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

Unread postby Derek » 1 May 2019, 17:05

René wrote:I think he's much more likely to finish the books if people give him love and support rather than impatience.

Cold indifference is my best and final offer.

I don't think it matters. Say he does finally wrap it up - HBO will probably be on it's fifth follow-up series by then. You have to be a die-hard fan to keep caring over the span of literal decades.
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Re: "Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

Unread postby René » 1 May 2019, 17:54

Derek wrote:
René wrote:I think he's much more likely to finish the books if people give him love and support rather than impatience.

Cold indifference is my best and final offer.

I don't think it matters. Say he does finally wrap it up - HBO will probably be on it's fifth follow-up series by then. You have to be a die-hard fan to keep caring over the span of literal decades.

There are stories I got into 10-25 years ago that still mean every bit as much to me now as they did then. The passage of time doesn't seem to be a factor. I'll be here :)

And I don't care about some network creating fan fiction (which a lot of the show has essentially been). I'll watch it as such if it's good, but it's pretty clear to me that the story I've come to care about is the story GRRM created, which HBO did a decent job of adapting for TV until they ran out of books to draw from and started making stuff up based loosely on discussions they had with him years earlier.
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Re: "Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 1 May 2019, 21:46

René wrote:and it's not like most forms of disability would stop a prolific author authoring. Just look at Stephen Hawking.

These people put their thongs on one leg at a time just like the rest of us. They’re really not any different.
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Re: "Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

Unread postby Derek » 2 May 2019, 01:50

René wrote:And I don't care about some network creating fan fiction (which a lot of the show has essentially been). I'll watch it as such if it's good, but it's pretty clear to me that the story I've come to care about is the story GRRM created, which HBO did a decent job of adapting for TV until they ran out of books to draw from and started making stuff up based loosely on discussions they had with him years earlier.

The book series suffered a drop in quality after the first, I'd say. GRRM gave us the world, but his writing isn't so amazing that it supersedes the show in importance. Point being, I'm looking forward more to a followup series than to Martin finishing what he started, and not just because I think we're far more likely to actually get it.
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Re: "Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

Unread postby Brenden » 4 May 2019, 21:27

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Re: "Game of Thrones" Discussion Thread

Unread postby René » 5 May 2019, 14:17

Brenden wrote:


For the screen is dark and the script is full of errors.
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