Lack of (gay) relationships advice needed

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Re: Lack of (gay) relationships advice needed

Unread postby lostinspace94 » 12 March 2022, 00:25

Indeed, I have. Straight and gay. Everyone is clueless, which makes me more frustrated.

I've also asked the guys I hooked up with (not all, just the ones who messaged etc). I get comments like 'your hot, im surprised your single' etc .... which brings me back here.

Ah ok. Tbh I have, not very actively but where I can, but typically it never happens. I've also been told casually "when I'm in town lets grab drinks" or similar and typically they will just forget and/or I won't chase it. I do chase where I feel some spark or connection or interest though.

Maybe there are cultural differences but I experience the same problems in the UK and US so it can't be that different. But I agree I do think culture plays into it somewhat. I'm thinking to relocate to NYC to be honest and just slut about. Seems like this love thing is a dead end for me and I may as well enjoy my life / youth at this point.
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Re: Lack of (gay) relationships advice needed

Unread postby PopTart » 12 March 2022, 22:41

Okay, so going back over the last four years of you posting about this issue, I thought I'd take a browse at what you had to say and I want to call your attention to somethings you have said previously. In no particular order:

lostinspace94 wrote:> My other friend thinks I may be "acoustic asexual" (meaning you have sex with either gender, but don't feel romantic/in love), and while the signs are there that this may be true, that will suck so much if true. I want to "love" I just don't.
<-This from four years ago.

Also from the same time:
lostinspace94 wrote:I don’t expect all one nighters ending up in a relationship or love or anything. What is weird is *none* have resulted in anything more. What is more weird is the 3 time limit. I don’t even mean a relationship as in a bf relationship but also a fb relationship or even just a dinner out. It is literally like these guys vanish. Or there is something wrong with me and no one is telling me. :/ Idk if/when I have been in love, I guess everything has lasted too short to feel that way, but until I get someone to last longer (and actually meet more in person, whatsapp conversations have a limited shelf life) it’s tough.


lostinspace94 wrote:I could be emotionally shallow, sure. Not sure what to do about this though if they are not coming back...
Not to be insensitive, but there might be something to this. Or perhaps your emotional range is more limited, I dunno. :shrug:

lostinspace94 wrote:If attraction or league was a problem then why sit on me in the first place anyway? I don’t get it.
You're super hot, people feel you're out of their league, which would imply they might feel intimidated at the prospect of retaining your interest, which you lowkey make clear in your posts, is a concern they ought to be having, because your interest tends to wax and wane... and you don't understand why they would still want to sit on you atleast once regardless? Come on.

lostinspace94 wrote:after describing three scenarios in which you didn't get the results you seem to be looking for Just only a handful actually convert to a long chat or another sleepover so if these are not signals for someone being interested in me / wanting me then what is.


lostinspace94 wrote:I go on "dating" apps like Tinder, but then its just chat chat chat and never meet. At least with Grindr I get the hookup. Funnily enough, the guys who reply on Tinder are on Grindr typically too. Not sure how to get out of this circle.
Again we see an over reliance on app based hookups, you seem to have little patience from the process of getting to know someone. You want to get straight to the sex, because it's important to you, you want repeat visits and the chance to be with someone, but you haven't the patience for "chat chat chat" You want to get to the sex as soon as possible (and leave no room anticipation and the thrill of the unknown) but then, you want to bypass the irritating chatting (the hard work of actually getting to know someone) and get right to the being connected part. It doesn't work that way, you realise?

lostinspace94 wrote:I think I sleep with guys for the following reasons 1) they are 'easy' i.e. you just go on Grindr, and there you go 2) overall men are hotter i.e. a lot more fit ones, ones that work out, face is nicer etc 3) generally i find them nicer in their personality / they lack bitchiness in a good way / i click with them as a friend quicker / they don't create a scene over sex 4) there is an orgasm issue I have ... with men you can "see" it but women fake and stuff and that is really weird for me 5) I really hate and do not want kids ever, and being with a woman makes that difficult.
I think I need more friends vs relationship tbh. I am lonely at work and live alone so when someone even talks to me properly I "like" them. As for successful, its not really how I filter, I have banged pretty much all types of guys - club dancers to high end bankers/lawyers. Its not their job that turns me on lol.
I have never "loved" though (i.e. if someone dropped off the earth tomorrow, apart from my family, I would be fine). Some level of "challenge" needs to be there in order for us to become friends otherwise it is just another one night stand.
There is too much for someone not trained in psychology to unpack here. But combined with other things you say, it gives me pause, as to if you even know what it is you want.

lostinspace94 wrote:It is lonely - which is what I have been trying to change. But I also feel like unless I offer something like sex, my flat, pay for dinner etc no one will even bother with me given there are so many other options nowerdays. I feel this is the mentality of people also.
Some self esteem issues here maybe?

lostinspace94 wrote:I am able to score hookups via apps, but nothing more. If I ask the hookup guys back, either they vanish, or say yes but never physically will meet me again. On all other apps (e.g. dating apps), I get matches, but never a meet in person. I have never met a gay man in real life through LGBT networks at work, gym or otherwise that I am attracted to / asked me out / I want to ask out etc. I'm about 10 years into using apps / being gay and not ever had a FWB let alone a bf (I had 1 gay long distance friend ever but that ended also). All of my straight relationships (family, friends, work colleagues --> friends) last years and years so intimacy ability to keep a relationship going is not the issue. Every year I go to therapy, try their new ideas, and end up with the same results (i.e. no results). What is going on?


lostinspace94 wrote:I consider myself normal masculine. I can't imagine bottoming (nothing wrong with it, just can't see myself do it, even for the hottest man in the world) hence don't. I don't even suck dicks tbh like once maybe every 3-4 years if I really really have the urge too and that too for like 5 mins max.


lostinspace94 wrote:Not trying to label myself... just would be helpful to actually meet someone I actually like and want 'more' with (as per my other thread). Whatever the gender.


I'm not sure if I'm quoting all the pertinent threads and posts you've made.

But in your posts, I see some patterns. Maybe they mean something, maybe they don't :shrug: Maybe I'm misreading the situation. I am not a psychologist and I rather suspect, that is the kind of person you need to talk to. But since you have been coming here for the last four years with this...

So it seems to me, that you are encountering some difficulty, in part due to the transient and overtly superficial nature of gay dating in modernity. Particularly due to your over reliance on hookup apps as a means of trying to meet potential dates and LT partners. But I feel that is only a small part in your difficulties and that, infact, the biggest problem, is you.

Why? I can't put my finger on it precisely, but I can't help but notice certain patterns. For example, I wonder if you only fetishise men. You are very sexually attracted to men, but when you stop to get to know them, you quickly lose sexual interest in them, you friend zone them. By your own admission, you have never felt love for anyone and you know what, people can sometimes sense if you don't have any emotional interest in them. You talk about sexually reciprocating for another man in a negative fashion. You won't blow a guy, you would never bottom for one. You will only ever let them "sit on you" Some guys are down with that kind of Top-Bottom/Dom-Sub dynamic, but the vast majority of gay men, tend towards reciprocal sexual expression and yours is the kind many gay men often associate with repressed closeted guys who don't really respect the guys they fuck. I use the word fuck with purpose. Because with such men, that is all the sex ever is. Fucking. It's never intimate or emotionally fulfilling. Do you actually want a real relationship with a man? Or with anyone? Or do you fear that, you'll get old alone and so you feel compelled to find someone, anyone, to prevent you from being alone. Because that isn't about partnership. That isn't about the other person and how much they mean to you. That is about preventing yourself from experiencing negative feelings. People pick up on this kind of shit, not exactly for what it is, but as a vague "something is off" vibe.

At times it seems like you don't really want to be bothered with the difficult task of getting to know someone else, unless you can be sure it will lead to something substantative and people can pick up on that. It could be you come across cold and stand offish, untrusting or disinterested even. A red flag for anyone who might regard you as being out of their league. Or pretty much anyone else. Sure you might be persistent or maintain a high level of engagement, which can lead to you being "intense" but if that engagement doesn't come with any warmth or the suggestion of emotional investment, people are naturally going to move on in their own search. They might even be put off.

You talk a lot about how amazing you are, how sorted your life is.... and yet I wonder if you have some deep rooted emotional trust and self esteem issues. Some things you say about women would seem to imply you don't trust them. Your friend zoning partners with whom you became close after all that "chat chat chat" could be you subconciously putting those guys back at arms length, where they can't threaten your emotional security.

Are you using men as a form of sexual gratification, for whom sex is uncomplicated (something you count as a boon in gay mens favour in your esteem) unlike women who are bitchy, untrustworthy (and with the whole kids thing, potentially out to trap you with unwanted fatherhood!) Or perhaps your incredibly emotionally guarded (or stunted, it can happen, some people just don't have a wide "range" not a criticism, everyone is different, it just means different life experience and expectations) and without realising it, you send out the "STAY CLEAR" signals without even knowing it. Because if your having the same experience, with a great many men, from across two seperate countries on different sides of the planet... there is only one common denominator and that is you.

Just some thoughts
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Re: Lack of (gay) relationships advice needed

Unread postby lostinspace94 » 13 March 2022, 06:14

Some good digging here. Will try and address some things I have learned over the years that may help.

I did have a phase where I was confused if I was even gay because all the guys I had slept with nothing else was happening. I have been to sex therapy and other things, I am gay (not bi or anything) but aromatic is still on the table (aromatic means you can have sexual attraction but no romantic attraction). I still ‘crush’ on guys, but once I have slept with them, I’m usually indifferent. And ‘slept with’ means fucking, not even a sleepover or anything more intimate. Also, in the meantime, I still don’t bottom, but I have sucked guys off that turned me on and basically do everything else.

I did further research into my personality type and love languages and similar. For me, I feel connection with someone if I communicate and they communicate back. I think this is very true for me personally. I have strong relationships (long term) with (straight) friends and family because its communication built up over time which I index on much much more than physical touch (perhaps also because getting the physical touch is ‘easy’ for me so I don’t ‘value’ it as much vs someone who really listens to me and cares about what I am actually saying). Given all of my interactions with gay men through apps etc are sexual, or dont last long enough to have any meaningful deep exchange of conversation, I don’t think the “love” feeling can develop (for me) which is why it hasn’t. Ad hoc surface level conversation is also not going to trigger me (which is common on gay men - more acquaintance type - which seems like a dead end to me emotionally). Now, maybe finally one invests, and I still am not feeling anything, I don’t know, but I can’t answer this without going through it. That said, I don’t also try with *every* guy I sleep with, it really depends on the vibe, and as I age I think I am trying even less and less to even bother to be completely honest (especially now that most guys are in open relationships etc so sleeping with them is already a dead end really as it doesn’t matter how great you are, they are spoken for) but thats also because I'm just not meeting guys (or less often) that turn me on in some way (beyond physically).

Being “super hot” is not something I see myself as. I think I am average looking who takes care of himself. I think finding sex is easy, sure, but that’s also because I think I know how to “pull” someone, present myself etc. I don’t think I’m so hot that someone wouldn’t want to ever come back for even just sex. This is what is really confusing. Surely you *do* want repeat sex at least with someone you are physically attracted to? Maybe I am delusional. Also, and I know you don’t mean it this way, but a repeat hookup leading to a relationship is not uncommon in the gay world so I don’t get why its “such a bad thing” if both are open minded enough to it. Also, if I am super hot, fucking other super hot guys, surely the super super hot guys would not be insecure as they are "hotter" than me surely? So maybe its the opposite. Maybe I am always with guys "hotter" than me so they see me "below" them? But tbh the range I sleep with I don't know if this theory holds.

FYI - there are many times there is a significant amount of chat chat chat and I’m asking the questions and sharing to. As an example I spoke to one guy before I moved, we chatted daily, for hours at a time, sharing very detailed things about our past. I’m now in the new city, he still replies, but we still never meet (despite my numerous invitations for drinks, cinema etc). Sure, I don’t invest this much in all men, and Grindr especially I am more focused on meeting for sex if I find him hot I agree, but there are also many guys here who I find “normal” and therefore I ask to be friends, ask about their work, ask about where they are from etc, but it all fizzles from their end or actually becomes sexual from their end faster than mine. I have been to dating / relationship coaches and literally shown the chats so they can see what I am typing and 2 refunded me my fee as they were clueless. I can paste feedback I have received also from them (basically, its not you, its them is the “takeaway”) if helpful but it just gets me more frustrated tbh. I have had countless conversations with guys who write "only looking for friends" etc on their profile, we get chatting, and their ass pic is literally being sent to me within 10 mins of chatting (not upon my request). Rather than "hot" I wonder if I just have some strong sexual game thing without realising so they "see me sexually" like a fantasy and then its over once we fuck and thats it. And when I open my mouth and they realise there is more to me they get confused and run? This is what a therapist said anyway, but again, their issue, not mine. They are sexualising me. They are making these walls.

Apps have become the only method I can meet a gay man and have sex, yes. As I have said, I have been on countless other apps (Tinder, Hinge etc) and never landed a date there. I am "out there" but never made any quality LGBT connections. Many matches, many chatting with me and even organising a (non-sexual) meet, never happens. This is why I made the comment that until I offer something I don’t seem to get any kind of emotional investment at all (from a gay man, the same is not true otherwise). Not sure how that is a self esteem issue but open to your feedback here. Again, this is also based off the limited guys (<10 that I can recall over the past 10 years) who have followed up with any level of interest.

Onto your feedback — your hypothesis may be correct. I cannot confirm or deny it, as I have never had an experience where I felt sexually towards a guy as well as felt a good friendship. I genuinely mean this. As for sex being emotionally intimate etc — comes back to the above. If the guy is willing to meet within 10 mins of chatting, or chat chat chats and never meets, or we sleep together and then chat chat chat and never meets me, or we sleep together and he vanishes — in all those circumstances its impossible to build any level of emotional connection no? Its not like by choice I want all these guys to vanish. There have been guys I chased after sex but literally no one ever came back. If they had come back, would we have had a more intimate time? Probably. I don’t know. I can’t answer something I have never experienced. I don’t’ expect a miracle overnight, I don’t want a partner because “I’m lonely” but I feel I have a lot to offer in a relationship at this point (beyond physical) and am confused why no one seems to want to also join me in this experience. I can’t tie someone up and force them… it has to come from them… but when they are also investing so little emotionally then what can I do? The therapist took my side again on this issue saying I just haven't met the right person to "trigger" me on both sides and that doesn't mean something is "wrong" with me. But I am confused what to even look for anymore as at this point I feel I have tried a lot of different things.

Also when I have asked some of the hookups (over the years, not just recently) who do chat basically why didn’t it work out I literally have had feedback like “you are hot, you will be taken quickly, how the f**k are you single etc” so this is not helpful. I have challenged this feedback too saying it there absolutely anything they come up empty.

I am not sure on the sexual gratification part. I think it has become that just because of my past experiences. When there have been times I’ve had sex and followed up with a guy I was interested in seeing again, I didn’t feel any urge to jump back on Grindr and find the next best thing. Usually after he never replied (days later or I could see he had left the country or read my message and didn't respond) I mentally just moved on i.e. at that point continue my search. That said, in the past 4 years I don’t think I met anyone where I felt this way so everything has been fuck and go basically. Also the ‘fried zoning partners’ is not true also… we are talking about 2 guys I slept with in my entire life becoming 'friend zoned'. Every other guy ever has never kept in touch. So I don’t think we can extrapolate 2 guys to the God knows how many others I slept with to make a generalisation here. I don't *have* to sexually like every guy I sleep with and become friends with indefinitely surely? Also, let's flip it. Its not like any of the friends (or acquaintances or people I see in the gym or work etc) I made ever asked to have sex with me / go on a date with me either and I said no.... I have NEVER been asked outside of apps for anything.

I find the “STAY CLEAR” paragraph interesting. Maybe. But I am trying on my end to open up as I know and try and connect. If it is not enough, and no one is pointing anything out and/or investing back, I’m always going to be stuck in this loop no? But also, when I think about it, lets take a hookup. Pics, sexual conversation and some flirting on the chat. We hookup where we barely talk. They leave or I leave. So from that single limited interaction, if they are getting such a vibe, I am clueless. It would actually be better we had say 2-3 dates and then I was rejected as then that would be more about my personality or something, but this is like such a weird stage of the process where you dont quite know enough to even judge them? Again, how do you show vulnerability if you are only able to arrange sex dates, and guys are not interested in chatting with you at all beyond superficial things?

ps I don't think the issue is others, hence I am posting. I have been to countless therapists at this point, wasted so much money, got 0 insights to actually act upon. The last one basically said this is gay culture, this is the city I live in etc and I moved and the same issue happens....she should refund me! lol
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Re: Lack of (gay) relationships advice needed

Unread postby PopTart » 13 March 2022, 11:39

lostinspace94 wrote:Some good digging here. Will try and address some things I have learned over the years that may help.

I did have a phase where I was confused if I was even gay because all the guys I had slept with nothing else was happening. I have been to sex therapy and other things, I am gay (not bi or anything) but aromatic is still on the table (aromatic means you can have sexual attraction but no romantic attraction).
Aromatic means you smell good :D I'm guessing you mean A-romantic, but I get what you mean. Will come back to this later.

lostinspace94 wrote:I still ‘crush’ on guys, but once I have slept with them, I’m usually indifferent. And ‘slept with’ means fucking, not even a sleepover or anything more intimate. Also, in the meantime, I still don’t bottom, but I have sucked guys off that turned me on and basically do everything else.
This could potentially be the crux of your problem, if you send out subconcious signals about that indifference. It might not be immediately obvious to you, especially in given circumstances. Which could relate to what I hint at above and I will come back to that too.


lostinspace94 wrote:I did further research into my personality type and love languages and similar. For me, I feel connection with someone if I communicate and they communicate back.
Could you explain for me, what a connection looks like to you, what it feels like? Do you find yourself thinking about that person all day? If so, how do you feel when you do. Do you have an insatiable itch to talk to them again at the earliest convenience or is it more subdued? More of "Would be agreeable to see/speak with them" kind of deal?

lostinspace94 wrote:I have strong relationships (long term) with (straight) friends and family because its communication built up over time which I index on much much more than physical touch (perhaps also because getting the physical touch is ‘easy’ for me so I don’t ‘value’ it as much vs someone who really listens to me and cares about what I am actually saying)
Initially, reading this and other things you have written in the past, I think of some form of reverse demisexual, called Frayromantic or even, Fraysexual. This is sexuality that responds to intimacy in much the same way as demisexuals do, but in the opposite, so as one becomes more familiar or intimate, one loses sexual desire (in Fraysexual cases) or loses the desire for romantic involvement (Frayromantic) Look it up and perhaps, you might find something that rings true for you. If so and you do feel like that is what you might be, then it becomes about managing your own and other peoples expectations of what kinds of relationships you are likely to actually want going forward and can expect. Learning what that might mean as you get older and what that lifestyle entails etc etc and how to manage that given wider societies almost complete cluelessness about this kind of thing.


lostinspace94 wrote:Given all of my interactions with gay men through apps etc are sexual, or dont last long enough to have any meaningful deep exchange of conversation, I don’t think the “love” feeling can develop (for me) which is why it hasn’t. Ad hoc surface level conversation is also not going to trigger me (which is common on gay men - more acquaintance type - which seems like a dead end to me emotionally). Now, maybe finally one invests, and I still am not feeling anything, I don’t know, but I can’t answer this without going through it.
So here we reach the crux of the issue and that is, does this failure for anything to form, come from you or from other people? While hookup culture has created an unhealthy over reliance on casual sex relationships and people are more flighty, more likely to have multiple partners and more likely to have shallow interactions as a result, I find the sheer volume of people that seem to disengage with you, indicative that the root issue lies with you and not with all those other people. I get that paid therapists might tell you otherwise, but I have to say, that in the UK atleast, there is a distinct difference between a commercial "Therapist" and a proper psychologist. One of those can practice without credentials, the other can't. A relationship counsellor, doesn't need a degree to hang the sign therapist on the door. Hell, I could go out tomorrow and advertise my own services as a therapist and there is no law here to say I can't. :runaway:


lostinspace94 wrote:That said, I don’t also try with *every* guy I sleep with, it really depends on the vibe, and as I age I think I am trying even less and less to even bother to be completely honest (especially now that most guys are in open relationships etc so sleeping with them is already a dead end really as it doesn’t matter how great you are, they are spoken for) but thats also because I'm just not meeting guys (or less often) that turn me on in some way (beyond physically).
Some of this might be age, libido and/or a sense of defeat in the face of failure to succeed in your relationship ambitions. So it can be hard to really know here. You'd have to do some soul searching to figure out why it is you feel that.

lostinspace94 wrote:Being “super hot” is not something I see myself as. I think I am average looking who takes care of himself. I think finding sex is easy, sure, but that’s also because I think I know how to “pull” someone, present myself etc. I don’t think I’m so hot that someone wouldn’t want to ever come back for even just sex. This is what is really confusing. Surely you *do* want repeat sex at least with someone you are physically attracted to? Maybe I am delusional.
What I was getting at, is that, while you might not think you are an adonis, you clearly state that other people do. That comes with a load of pre-loaded ideas about you. This is the only event, in which, I could see the problem you face, being with those you are meeting and not stemming from you personally. This would be that the people you meet, DO regard you as out of their league, that they are punching abve their weight. As such they might be willing to risk a once off, or hooking up again, but fearing that they might open themselves to emotional harm, not want to come back, especially as they get to know (and even like) you. This could be compounded if you give off an aura of being too laid back/disinterested. Such that they subconciously weigh the risks of getting hurt when you inevitably grow bored with them and leave them behind (heartbreak) against the rewards of spending time with someone they find ridiculously attractive and enjoyable to speak to aswell. I must admit, I find it hard to believe that the majority of guys you meet would feel this way, as there are always those people for whom that decision making process, doesn't fall on the "protect yourself" side of the scale or for whom, that whole situation, wouldn't even be a thing. You ought to have had someone stick around by now. Hence the reason I focus on you the issue being yours. Nearly nobody could have that level of strike out rate. It strains probability (though I guess, mathematically isn't impossible but if it is that you just have awful luck in that way, congratulations you are an extreme mathematical improbability, a distant outlier on the scale of likelihood, you are special in the universe, mathematically speaking)

lostinspace94 wrote:Also, and I know you don’t mean it this way, but a repeat hookup leading to a relationship is not uncommon in the gay world so I don’t get why its “such a bad thing” if both are open minded enough to it.
Yes ofcourse that is true, it is your specific case in which that isn't true, which is why you are here, have been for four years, trying to figure out, why in your case, it isn't true. Which is why I would say, the problem lies with you. Either in your expectations given your actual desires or in how you come across, inadvertently or not, that drives people away.

lostinspace94 wrote:Also, if I am super hot, fucking other super hot guys, surely the super super hot guys would not be insecure as they are "hotter" than me surely? So maybe its the opposite. Maybe I am always with guys "hotter" than me so they see me "below" them? But tbh the range I sleep with I don't know if this theory holds.
Super hot, doesn't mean, super confident, indeed, sometimes it can be indicative of the opposite. Super hot people are as capable of insecurity and hang ups, as anyone else. But I think that is probably not what is happening here.

lostinspace94 wrote:FYI - there are many times there is a significant amount of chat chat chat and I’m asking the questions and sharing to. As an example I spoke to one guy before I moved, we chatted daily, for hours at a time, sharing very detailed things about our past. I’m now in the new city, he still replies, but we still never meet (despite my numerous invitations for drinks, cinema etc).
yeah, I don't have a good explanation for this. Maybe you do pick guys who are too flakey, too non-commital, too likely to be all talk and no follow through. :shrug: Or maybe there is something about you, that puts people off, could be abit of both, or neither at all.

lostinspace94 wrote:I have been to dating / relationship coaches
Seriously, means nothing. You need to discuss things with an accredited, card carrying, medically trained psychologist. Not "life coach" types who quickly realise that you carry more issues around than they are qualified to deal with and thus give you your money back smile as they close the door and send you on your way.

lostinspace94 wrote:Rather than "hot" I wonder if I just have some strong sexual game thing without realising so they "see me sexually" like a fantasy and then its over once we fuck and thats it. And when I open my mouth and they realise there is more to me they get confused and run? This is what a therapist said anyway, but again, their issue, not mine. They are sexualising me. They are making these walls.
This is possible for some, certainly, but for all of those people? They all have the same pathology when dealing with you? Does that seem likely?

lostinspace94 wrote:Apps have become the only method I can meet a gay man and have sex, yes. As I have said, I have been on countless other apps (Tinder, Hinge etc) and never landed a date there. I am "out there" but never made any quality LGBT connections. Many matches, many chatting with me and even organising a (non-sexual) meet, never happens. This is why I made the comment that until I offer something I don’t seem to get any kind of emotional investment at all (from a gay man, the same is not true otherwise). Not sure how that is a self esteem issue but open to your feedback here. Again, this is also based off the limited guys (<10 that I can recall over the past 10 years) who have followed up with any level of interest.
Ten guys in ten years, so one a year and out of how many hookups? Hundreds in that 10 years, surely? You ask how you might exhibit self esteem issues while still putting yourself out there and hooking up with plenty of guys? But surely you get that some self esteem issues aren't linked to sexual identity, sexual performance, which you admit comes very naturally to you, where forming meaningful emotional connections, doesn't and you have few friends with whom you really connect very well. Emotional insecurity or self esteem issues that manifest as emotional remoteness are totally a thing. I'm not saying you have self esteem issues for sure, I am no more qualified than those relationship coaches you use. But it could be that you have these kinds of issues and they manifest in ways you don't or wont identify, while those you interact with, can and do, even if in vague and ill defined terms. This could be the same thing if you don't have an emotional range on par with the majority of other people, you might not notice it, but other people do.

lostinspace94 wrote:Onto your feedback — your hypothesis may be correct. I cannot confirm or deny it, as I have never had an experience where I felt sexually towards a guy as well as felt a good friendship. I genuinely mean this. As for sex being emotionally intimate etc — comes back to the above. If the guy is willing to meet within 10 mins of chatting, or chat chat chats and never meets, or we sleep together and then chat chat chat and never meets me, or we sleep together and he vanishes — in all those circumstances its impossible to build any level of emotional connection no?
Ofcourse, what you say is true, but the question I find myself asking, is it even a problem, if you are indeed on the Fraysexual or Frayromantic side, then the problem isn't really a problem and what needs adjustment, is your expectations, of both yourself and other people. What you might expect for the shape of your relationships with people going forward etc etc.

Also, had you considered that you might be forming judgements about those guys who jump straight in the sack with you, that preclude your forming emotional bonds with them? If you have emotional trust, vulnerablility issues, or insecurities as to whypeople really take an interest in you, you might be shutting down that part of you that is open to forming a meaningful connection, in which case, it won't matter how much other people respond to you and follow up, they are going to sense that and either move on or just fade away.

lostinspace94 wrote:Its not like by choice I want all these guys to vanish. There have been guys I chased after sex but literally no one ever came back. If they had come back, would we have had a more intimate time? Probably. I don’t know. I can’t answer something I have never experienced. I don’t’ expect a miracle overnight, I don’t want a partner because “I’m lonely” but I feel I have a lot to offer in a relationship at this point (beyond physical) and am confused why no one seems to want to also join me in this experience. I can’t tie someone up and force them… it has to come from them… but when they are also investing so little emotionally then what can I do? The therapist took my side again on this issue saying I just haven't met the right person to "trigger" me on both sides and that doesn't mean something is "wrong" with me. But I am confused what to even look for anymore as at this point I feel I have tried a lot of different things.
The problem here is, that clearly other people aren't sticking around and the reason for that is what you need to understand. It's not about who the fault lies with. It's not about sides, or what one person stands to gain or lose or anything else. It's not about you having something wrong with you. It's about something either you are doing wrong or other people are doing wrong. In your case, something you are doing that consistently drives other people away or causes them to disengage or on their part, getting the wrong impression and losing interest or withdrawing for other reasons. We will never be able to tell you, what is going on in the heads of other people, we haven't met and whose perception we have of them, is derived entirely from your vague recounting of their actions, out of all context of the situation and possibly coloured by your own biases. We can't "diagnose" what is going on there, only take wild guesses. Which is why I focus on you, your choices, actions and motivations.

lostinspace94 wrote:Also when I have asked some of the hookups (over the years, not just recently) who do chat basically why didn’t it work out I literally have had feedback like “you are hot, you will be taken quickly, how the f**k are you single etc” so this is not helpful. I have challenged this feedback too saying it there absolutely anything they come up empty.
Look, I once dated a guy, who had a funny smell. He was a nice guy, average bod, he sometimes made me laugh. But the smell, it was weird. Offputting. I just couldn't get past it. When he left for work in the morning, I'd roll over and still be able to smell him on the pillows and I'd want to get out of bed. It was the opposite of those times, when a guys smell could drive me wild with desire. This guys smell repulsed me. It wasn't awful or odourous as such. It was just not nice to me. I ended it. When he asked me why I ended it, do you think I told him "Because I don't like the way you smell?" Hell no! What was to be gained by that honesty? The smell wasn't particularly noticeable to other people, one friend also noted the smell, but didn't find it unpleasant, just distinct. It was, technically, me. So that's what I told him. :shrug: People might not always be upfront and tell you something if it's critical. Now maybe these people were telling the truth and that is totally possible. But if you were such an amazing catch, one that shouldn't be allowed to get away... why did they? Maybe it really was them, wrong time, wrong place etc etc. But maybe not.


lostinspace94 wrote:I am not sure on the sexual gratification part. I think it has become that just because of my past experiences.
So you have become more emotionally guarded, would you say?

lostinspace94 wrote:When there have been times I’ve had sex and followed up with a guy I was interested in seeing again, I didn’t feel any urge to jump back on Grindr and find the next best thing. Usually after he never replied (days later or I could see he had left the country or read my message and didn't respond) I mentally just moved on i.e. at that point continue my search.
You mean, you do precisely what other people might well be doing to you? Think about it, not everyone replies right away, some people are very busy, have large social circles, plus full time work and travel. Maybe you don't get a response in the time you like, you shut down emotionally, anticipating failure and then, even if they do respond. Too late. You have moved on.

lostinspace94 wrote:That said, in the past 4 years I don’t think I met anyone where I felt this way so everything has been fuck and go basically.
See, this speaks to not really being emotionally available. Guys pick up on that.

lostinspace94 wrote:Also the ‘fried zoning partners’ is not true also… we are talking about 2 guys I slept with in my entire life becoming 'friend zoned'.
When the only two people you have been emotionally available for, have ceased to be prospective sexual interests, I start thinking Fraysexual. Or extremely emotionally guarded.

lostinspace94 wrote:Every other guy ever has never kept in touch.
Yes, Why?

lostinspace94 wrote:So I don’t think we can extrapolate 2 guys to the God knows how many others I slept with to make a generalisation here.
It's not about a generalisation, it's about a predominant pattern. Two guys are outliers that become significant, because they vary so greatly, from the vast majority of other cases. We can learn a little something of value perhaps, by investigating, what was different in these instances. But you can't draw meaningful conclusions from these two, for the whys and hows of all the other guys you haven't connected with, because they are too divergent from the majority of outcomes you get. They aren't representative of what normally happens for you.

lostinspace94 wrote:I don't *have* to sexually like every guy I sleep with and become friends with indefinitely surely?
For me, kind of, yes, but I'm demisexual. I often find it hard to be sexually and emotionally engaged with someone, without knowing them some first. I struggle to form meaningful connections without either sexual or more importantly, personal familiarity. For me, that means I need to get to know someone, then I need to sleep with them, then I can get to know them better. I find it hard to do things out of that order. When I do, I usually don't form the kinds of connections that matter. I tend to develop sexual inclinations towards male friends. If sex follows, then I tend to develop deeper emotional connections and desires from there. Take out one step and things might not pan out. It's a whole thing. If I sleep with someone right away, the sex is usually not good for me, I struggle to connect emotionally and people pick up on that. It leads to people not coming back.

You might have a whole thing too, that is different but that leads to you not making those connections.

lostinspace94 wrote:Also, let's flip it. Its not like any of the friends (or acquaintances or people I see in the gym or work etc) I made ever asked to have sex with me / go on a date with me either and I said no.... I have NEVER been asked outside of apps for anything.
But did you ever give any of those friends the impression, that sex would even be an option? Who knows, maybe one of your colleagues or friends, secretly carries a torch for you? Not saying they do, but they may never have mentioned it. People are like that.

lostinspace94 wrote:I find the “STAY CLEAR” paragraph interesting. Maybe. But I am trying on my end to open up as I know and try and connect.
Are you though? Because I can go through all the motions of buiding a relationship, which in the past, I have been absolutely adamant I wanted, only to have a guy I like, start talking about living together and suddenly, I'm looking for the exit. :shrug:

I have commitment issues, I loathe the idea of sacrificing my independance (especially the financial kind) and compromising with regards to how I spend my time, with someone else. Which is kind of integral to a healthy, functioning relationship. But I still crave for companionship, I still desire intimacy and love and all that stuff. I just like it on my terms! :D Now it took me years to understand this simple truth. But when I did, all the relationships I'd gotten into (or didn't) started to make more sense.

What I find myself wondering, is if infact, you are holding yourself back, because you haven't figured out your "truth" yet. That in a way you sabotage your own efforts because deep down you aren't really looking for, what you think your looking for.

lostinspace94 wrote:If it is not enough, and no one is pointing anything out and/or investing back, I’m always going to be stuck in this loop no? But also, when I think about it, lets take a hookup. Pics, sexual conversation and some flirting on the chat. We hookup where we barely talk. They leave or I leave. So from that single limited interaction, if they are getting such a vibe, I am clueless. It would actually be better we had say 2-3 dates and then I was rejected as then that would be more about my personality or something, but this is like such a weird stage of the process where you dont quite know enough to even judge them? Again, how do you show vulnerability if you are only able to arrange sex dates, and guys are not interested in chatting with you at all beyond superficial things?
Absolutely true and I offer up my thoughts as merely that, I argue their points not because I'm convinced they are applicable, but to flesh out my thinking and better communicate those thoughts to you, for you to judge for yourself. I am willing, if only just abouts, to say that your issue on this front, isn't likely just one thing, but a confluence of different factors, coming together to provide this bizarre situation that seems to defy statistical probability. As I have said previously, I can't say for certain which factors are at play (or are even things) that is for you to weigh and evaluate. I'm spitballing here.

lostinspace94 wrote:ps I don't think the issue is others, hence I am posting. I have been to countless therapists at this point, wasted so much money, got 0 insights to actually act upon. The last one basically said this is gay culture, this is the city I live in etc and I moved and the same issue happens....she should refund me! lol
I try to draw your focus on you for two reasons, one, most people are inclined to seek the cause of problems externally before considering internal causes (some people do the opposite, it's equally unhelpful) two, as I've already said, I can't speak with authority about motivations in the first person (i'm not a professional!) so I most certainly can't do so of people in the third person, related to me over the internet!

Now, I said I would come back to a couple of things. I hate to make this suggestion as it's become the latest fad, after depression the last few years, for everyone and their brother to claim they fall somewhere on the spectrum. But have you considered that you might fall somewhere on the Autism scale? The manner in which you talk about certain things, combined with what could be a blind spot to emotional and/social cues, could fit. It could also explain why you might not be picking up on some things, why you might make connections in oblique or lateral fashions. I also wouldn't be surprised if people for whom the Fraysexual identity fits, also found themselves on the autism scale. But it's worth considering.
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Re: Lack of (gay) relationships advice needed

Unread postby lostinspace94 » 13 March 2022, 23:19

‘Indifference’ comes from something e.g. I find out he has a bf so I know it can only be a hookup now; he says something like ‘because you don’t bottom we can’t be bf’s but fwb is ok’ (which turns me off actually); I can see he has left the country because of the Grindr distance when I go to message him again and so on. If he is ‘available’ and I feel interested in seeing him again (even if just for sex) I will make this clear somehow. This its becoming more and more rare, mostly due to external circumstances (he is visiting, he is spoken for, I didn’t feel connected in sex etc).

Connection is honesty hard for me to define because I think I have never actually felt it. I have never thought about someone all day. I usually message people (straight and gay) when I have time / feel like saying something / etc and typically because they reply quickly, we have a convo, I am “satisfied” and we go on. I have had people (mainly gay) drift in the past, even after months of chatting and sharing things, but I think because it happens so often, I feel the “loss” on the day, but also then process they are “gone” and also move on. The worst part of all of this is I tend to be right i.e. when they are gone they are gone forever. Its not like they take a break for 6 months then message. If they don’t message now, they never will, and this has also been proven to me time and time again. Over the years, I got fed up of “chasing up” people for replies and things, so I agree somewhat of me has “given up” on this.

Connection sexually and connection as a person is also confusing for me. I can be great friends with someone and feel nothing sexually. I can have great sex with someone and feel nothing for their personality. This is what I meant by no one has even come close to being in “both buckets”. Sure, there have been instances where I felt like this guy “could” be both, I pursue further, but its short lived and dies before it even starts. This is where the Frayromatic thing fits well - but I wonder if I experience romantic attraction at all or just sexual attraction. I have never met someone where I developed sexual / romantic feelings after knowing them though. What is strange is that there have been guys who have shared something or said something which is what makes me chase them up — so I’ve never slept with someone, said nothing and followed up which also means that I also loose interest if there is no connection beyond physical, which seems the opposite of Frayromatic lol.

The failure to form something is both ways. There are guys who followed up and I have not been interested. There are guys I follow up with and they are not interested. And the vast majority end with the hookup so then there is that. Where I am based now, I always see the picture as the first point of interest. I base my initial interaction off that. Then when I scroll, literally 90% of the guys I like the pic of, are in an open relationship or taken basically. This is also demotivating (in London, I had the problem that several I liked turned out to be an escort, only fans guy or similar, which was also annoying - not judging - but basically a relationship was not in their interests). My libido is still very high, I am still sleeping around like in my 20s, but I do think there is a sense of defeat and also just a lack of proper options that is eating away at me.

I agree men may make a perception of me via apps. But this is why we also have dating apps (non-sexual) but if they are saying hi and vanishing or similar, you can’t really do anything with that either. Your analysis though of how things may play out in their mind makes sense. I still think this makes more sense on a relationship side though after knowing someone over a period of time, rather than a single hookup? Maybe I am naive. Like in a world of fwb also, where there is no expectation of anything more, surely if they found me attractive enough they would come back for sex at least?

How I pick has come up in therapy before. Tbh, its a hard one, because its not like “you know” who is noncommittal etc before actually engaging. You have to engage, and see. There are lots of men who all chat very briefly and vanish so I would say they are super non-committal, but then you see them a month later with a bf on instagram and are like ok well that explains it lol. So you just don’t know really. But I would say the range of men I choose its even worse i.e. its not like I only go for 6 pack guys etc.

I agree with your analysis on therapists. I am open to trying someone fresh in the US. But at this point I am genuinely clueless what to even search for. I spent 2 weeks calling LGBT counsellors, even group therapy, and actually they turned me away to saying the don’t think they can help beyond what I have already tried. So I am still searching. I could try a proper physiologist or even a couples therapist (that is what one suggested that I spoke to recently) but I’m also afraid they just take my side again and I get nowhere (in fact this is also why I found it hard to find a new therapist, I told them what previous ones said, and specifically requested they dont take my side, which surprisingly they are unhappy to do).

Its not 10 years in 10 years = 1 a year. Initially I would say it was more like 3-4 a year. Then it dropped. There was also a period I came off apps entirely and met no one and tried in reality and that didn’t work out. In the past 4 years or so I have met no one I liked even a little. So its not a linear chart per say. Yes, hundreds of hookups, I got to the point (in London) where I would recognise most of the guys on the app (I wasn’t proud). And I’ve also ran out of matches / people to swipe on Tinder when I moved here (not in desperation, I just spend a good 30 mins a day swiping so it adds up). Your other points are correct, but again, until I get some feedback or insight I am stuck no? This is why I went to therapy.

I definitely don’t form judgements about men who sleep with me immediately. In fact I really prefer that because sex is important to me. So if I am attracted, that’s actually a big plus for them. In fact, the 2 friends were made after the hookup, because I felt actually more interested / open to seeing where this went because we were ‘over’ the sex part so to speak. So I would say having sex with me actually makes it easier for me to open up to you because 1) you have met me in person so I now have a vibe with you 2) we are not playing games to get each other into bed as that part is done 3) for me there is something ‘tanginle’ to invest in here i.e. I know at least sexually im interested, so now lets unfold the next layer. In fact, with several guys, I even shared this mindset on the app making a joke like ‘if you like me and I like you, and we hookup, will you consider more or do I need to buy you a coffee first lol’ or some light humour like that to suss them out. And so many guys seem very open to sleeping together and then seeing. I don’t think I’m shutting anyone down. I’ve never experienced anyone “chase” me. I’m either chasing / asking for what I want or nothing happens. This is also mostly true for straight friends - I’m usually the more talkative one, keeping in touch etc. Its always been like this and I’ve just accepted this is how it will always be. I did discuss this in therapy and I think the reality is I think so fast and lots of things are happening, I just usually have a lot more to chat about etc and therefore am the person who messages more / often. Not because their friendship is not genuine etc.

What I find interesting is the very quick ‘withdraw’ on their end. Like not even a sleepover. Fuck and go and never see/speak to me again in most cases. I na few cases continue to message but never meet. It is really strange. As also during sex several times the guy is making compliments e.g. nice dick, you look hot, etc. So I “assume” he is enjoying me (and I will comment back off) so this is where I get super confused at the withdrawal and lack of follow up. Taking your example - at least you slept over and also gave him the full experience and ended it. I’m not even getting explicit ‘end it’s’. For example, I messaged someone I slept with twice (which is one of the 5 guys ever I slept with twice) and lightly joked he should come to California and can crash with me. He sends all these hot emojis and says ‘sounds like a plan!’ even years after we met. So what is that about? I do think about 40% of the guys there are external circumstances (for both of us) e.g. location, etc but there were plenty of guys where nothing was ‘wrong’ yet there was no progress. But look at this example - again - I reached out - he never messaged even in all these years. So no, I don’t think I shut people down, but I do think I move on in a healthy time frame and make reasonable assumptions.

I don’t think I am emotionally guarded. I am logical and have always been. But I get teary in movies, I can freely talk about how I am feeling, both positive and negative, and open up fairly quickly if I’m hearing the right things from someone. It doesn’t take me months or something to make a friend in general - mostly because I am good company I am told, can talk about many topics, so typically find threads to connect on.

Lets talk about the 2 outliers. Both were hookups, and both were overnight sleepovers. One guy was in the US (I was not at the time) and we kept in touch via FB. He still messages if I message (but again, I am the one messaging). We also went years not talking as we were apart basically. We have never met in person again. The other we were friends (long distance) for 4 years, he ended it before he came to my city again (there is long thread about this on this forum) and the more I think about it, I actually don’t even think that Wass a ‘real friendship’ at least on his part. What was unique about both of these? Both of them slept over vs any other guy. Both of them chatted to me in our interaction and I did too (general stuff). Nothing else was different and not something I dont’ experience with other guys (minus the sleep over - FYI - I do offer sleepover to new guys I like, they just don’t).

As for someone approaching me - I’ve never been approached and I don’t know if any friend carries a torch for me (doubt it, most are married with kids or in a relationship at this point).

I like to independent too. But there is a big gap between a one off hookup and a boyfriend. There is a lot to experience in between too. Gay friendship. FWB. Dates. etc. This is not ‘moving into together and getting married’ but its not ‘fuck and go’ either. I am just confused why my experience is so extreme on one end still. Oddly, most of my friends are long distance, perhaps I love my independence too much lol. But I really do make an active effort in trying to get local friends but its just a disaster tbh.

I do like the comment about “my truth”. My take on this is that it is based on experience (and maybe I am wrong here). You need to experience things, feel things, then make calls. The issue is I don’t seem to experience anything in order to make a call if this makes sense. But perhaps there is another approach that can help me get there. But I can tell you I feel even more lost post therapy than I did in my 20s when I was just whoring around and having fun.

I have done several autism and Aspergers syndrome tests before as this also came up in therapy and they have all come back normal. I think the manner in which I talk about things boils down to a lack of actual real life experience, which is consequential, rather than something mentally off.
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Re: Lack of (gay) relationships advice needed

Unread postby Bob_Sm654 » 18 June 2022, 02:18

Look for someone you admire (no, not his cock or his ass) and that admires you. Both should have some common interests but not all. Can you learn something from this person that makes you a better man? And he, can also?
A relationship should be a path for both to become better individuals, this way, it will last.
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Re: Lack of (gay) relationships advice needed

Unread postby lostinspace94 » 25 June 2022, 23:09

Completely agree this advice but this is what I am also struggling to find. After sex, I am "done" most of the time and there is nothing connecting us.
Maybe I need to dig deeper into my own "gaps" so I can find someone complementary?
I agree, we should grow from each other, but its just hard to find someone who wants to invest (even date) beyond a hookup. This is what is very frustrating for me.
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