My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

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Re: My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

Unread postby GaySpacePirateKing » 21 February 2020, 20:55

Derek wrote:
GaySpacePirateKing wrote:I think when on the one hand you say you detest feminism then on the other that drag is like blackface, that you might not be coming from as concerned a view as you might think.

And how.


Somehow 'I am concerned about woman but I hate feminists and I am going to attack drag artists by comparing it with blackface' doesn't really add up for me. Lol

But I don't mean to reprimand really cause I get his thinking as I used to think quite the same about drag.

Just saying we might not know whats right here or be as concerned as we think we are. Especially if our starting point is hating feminism.
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Re: My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

Unread postby Derek » 21 February 2020, 21:01

I certainly think his contempt is lot more clear than his justification.
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Re: My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

Unread postby Magic J » 21 February 2020, 21:01

I mean, to argue against myself somewhat, I had a quick look at the Wikipedia page on the history of drag, and it mentions an origin partly within Minstrel shows, so I could definitely see where that interpretation comes from.

However, my position is that, whilst origins might be suspect, I don't think most people really associate it with racist vaudeville acts anymore, or see it as comparable in general. I don't, anyway. :shrug:
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Re: My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

Unread postby René » 21 February 2020, 21:08

GaySpacePirateKing wrote:
Brenden wrote:Yeah, I know, but I still think the analogy with blackface holds water, and I don't think it's a particularly radical notion that men dressing up as exaggerated parodies of women is… *cringe* problematic.

I think when on the one hand you say you detest feminism then on the other that drag is like blackface, that you might not be coming from as concerned a view as you might think.

I think you may have misread. He said he typically detests feminists, not feminism. I'm quite sure Brenden wholeheartedly supports feminism in its original, dictionary definition of "the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes" but would argue that that's not actually what a lot of people who describe themselves as feminists nowadays are doing.
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Re: My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

Unread postby GaySpacePirateKing » 21 February 2020, 21:09

René wrote:
GaySpacePirateKing wrote:
Brenden wrote:Yeah, I know, but I still think the analogy with blackface holds water, and I don't think it's a particularly radical notion that men dressing up as exaggerated parodies of women is… *cringe* problematic.

I think when on the one hand you say you detest feminism then on the other that drag is like blackface, that you might not be coming from as concerned a view as you might think.

I think you may have misread. He said he typically detests feminists, not feminism. I'm quite sure Brenden wholeheartedly supports feminism in its original, dictionary definition of "the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes" but would argue that that's not actually what a lot of people who describe themselves as feminists nowadays are doing.


Yeah fair point. I did misread that.
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Re: My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

Unread postby Brenden » 21 February 2020, 21:23

“Genderqueer”

I would laugh at the ridiculousness of it but I don’t think laughing at the mentally ill is very nice.
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Re: My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

Unread postby Capt._Trips » 22 February 2020, 02:07

Im only answering the op.

Imo your making a big deal over nothing. You said you may reconsider the relationship in a few months if he doesnt change..... Wtf? Why? Its something you enjoy and he doesn't. Why do you want to force him to "like" it. Im sure there are things that he likes that you dont enjoy. Imagine him thinking " oh if he/she doesnt start liking it in a few months his ass is gone."

If drag is something you seriously want to do ( you never specified if you wanted to do drag) that may become a problem. But if you just like drag and he doesnt isn't an issue. Unless you want it to be.

I'd go as far as saying if your gonna reconsider your relationship in a few months if he doesnt start liking ( or not feeling uncomfortable whatever that means) it. The relationship may not be worth considering at all.

Id say its all in your court. It's pretty common for good relationships to have not everything in common. There is nothing wrong with that. Its when one says the other HAS to become interested that problems will arise. Js
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Re: My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

Unread postby Sullivan » 22 February 2020, 05:36

I have never been to a drag show, though I did once go on a one-off date with a drag queen. He was quite lean, about 5' 9", and half African American and half Chinese. He described drag in terms of a spatial domination that permitted him to satisfyingly confront racial prejudice. While performing he commands the space of the club and the attention of the people in it, even when those people are a bunch of gym-toned, six-foot, cisgender Caucasians—Chicago honestly has too many such gays—who would otherwise never so much as deign to glance in his direction.

This fascinated me, as someone who'd never previously bothered thinking about drag for longer than twenty consecutive seconds, and now I share it.

OP, if drag discomforts him but your relationship is otherwise solid, I don't think it's worth ending things over.
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Re: My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

Unread postby Eryx » 27 February 2020, 05:56

Brenden wrote:As much as I typically detest feminists, they've got a point:
The Am I The Asshole (AITA) has a new thread that perfectly illustrates how icky/gross drag is when you sit down and think about it and realize how misogynistic it actually is. When you stop thinking about it as nameless men dressing up as nameless women so that is harmless fun...it becomes perfectly clear when you insert real women into it. This thread involves a mother who had a cherished wedding dress she loves and preserved. She passed it down to her daughter who also loved and cherished it to and wore it to her wedding in a lovely tradition. Now the gay son is getting married, will be wearing matching tuxes to the wedding. Great. But now he wants to do a drag show performance at the wedding reception where he dresses up as a bride and mocks bridezillas and does a caricature of brides in their big dresses with hair and makeup and look how silly and stupid women are, isn’t it all a laugh? AND HE WANTS TO WEAR HIS MOTHERS BELOVED WEDDING DRESS TO DO IT. Basically openly mocking his mother AND sister, mocking their dress, the way they look and act. The most hateful and disgusting misogynistic “performance” - and how does anyone find this funny or entertaining? Tell me again how drag isn’t problematic?
Drag is gender blackface.
Drag is inherent mockery of women.
Haha, uh-huh, I think you're getting way to TERF-y and that's what's clouding your judgment. Your view of transexuals in general and drag queens lately is closer to radical feminism than anything else. This can't be black face, because drags aren't making fun of women or saying their way to be is ugly or exaggerated. Drag queens are exaggerating things typically seen as female to point them out as something that can be worn and done by both genders, without major consequences, because people can just do whatever the fuck they want. It doesn't have to be about (literally) sex, or toy-cars, or playing house, it can be just a dress, and they can sometimes do it better.

The fact that you think exaggerated drag is a mockery is you admitting to everyone else that you believe exaggerated feminine traces and clothing are overdone and negative. We could run in circles for years and close many bars without finishing this conversation, because your argument does hold water, but it doesn't matter what we feel about it, what matters is what the drag queens are thinking of. There are drag queens out there doing it to make fun of what it means to be a girl, probably, but there are others who are doing the exact opposite -- and I'm willing to bet they're the majority.

It's quite a stretch to compare this to black face. I could argue for someone criticizing Brazilian straight guys for going out in skirts during Carnaval, as I've witnessed here -- and has become a discussion -- because sometimes they do feel like acting flamboyant, silly and distracted must be female traits, but that strays way far from what I consider an homage to femininity. It's alright to not enjoy drag, but villainizing it is absolutely ridiculous, especially coming from a gay man.

Next thing we know, now being effeminate is also a mockery of women? They can't do it, get attacked by homophobes, because how will the women feel? Oh my fucking God.

Let's take it from another angle, and this isn't fanfiction or an exaggeration: last afternoon was the last day of Carnaval here, one of the parties that has grown the most lately and tied to a protest against an asshole mayor, created by the LGBT. Most parties are rainbows and feminist fights. I was nearly home with my boyfriend, at my neighborhood, which is rather upper-classy usually, and we walked through a big party we weren't part of with people we didn't know (imagine like 500 people in a big-ish avenue). As we were about to leave the crowd, some dudes sitting down started calling us out and saying we were faggots and pussies and all that nice stuff. I gave them the finger, my boyfriend told them to fuck off. He was punched, I got angry, and I reacted, and I got the worst of it. Nothing too horrible because I fought back and they were spooked that there was a reaction.

They were angry because we were holding hands and being publicly gay. That's why, I think, people do drag. They want to be as gay as possible to make people understand. To make people accept. To show everyone else that feminine men can exist and be alive and do whatever they want without any sort of persecution for unchangeable traits. Drag is an exaggeration because we want to reach a point where any sort of spectrum of what it means to be a ´´man can be done without harassment. Villainizing that, in my opinion, is nothing else but cowardice.

Lastly, black face was made to make black people seem like animals, or at the very least behaviorally handicapped humans. Drag is done to remind people of beautiful female contributions to fashion, at its most innocent stage, powerful independent women at its militant stage, and mocking, funny, life-of-the-party women, at its relaxed stage. None of that could ever even come close to be compared to black face. And the TERF discourse can go to hell and back and off to hell again, it's not even a real argument.
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Re: My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

Unread postby Brenden » 28 February 2020, 02:00

Eryx wrote:That's why, I think, people do drag. They want to be as gay as possible to make people understand. To make people accept. To show everyone else that feminine men can exist and be alive and do whatever they want without any sort of persecution for unchangeable traits. Drag is an exaggeration because we want to reach a point where any sort of spectrum of what it means to be a ´´man can be done without harassment. Villainizing that, in my opinion, is nothing else but cowardice.

Gay ≠ feminine, and the pinnacle of homosexuality is not man dressed as an exaggerated caricature of women. LOL!
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Re: My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

Unread postby Brenden » 28 February 2020, 02:07

Just because my views on the mental disorder known as transsexualism, postmodern bullshit known as transgenderism, and the ridiculous pastime known as drag are shared by radical feminists doesn't make me a radical feminist.
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Re: My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 28 February 2020, 02:08

Brenden wrote:Gay ≠ feminine

It might not equal it but there does seem to be a very strong association between male homosexuality and feminine demeanor and speech.
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Re: My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

Unread postby Brenden » 28 February 2020, 02:11

poolerboy0077 wrote:
Brenden wrote:Gay ≠ feminine

It might not equal it but there does seem to be a very strong association between male homosexuality and feminine demeanor and speech.

There are many homosexuals who are not feminine (not that you'd see much of them what with your proclivities). There's a selection bias at work because the feminine ones stick out like sore thumbs.
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Re: My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

Unread postby Derek » 28 February 2020, 02:14

Eryx, be real. As someone who cares very deeply and very ingenuously about how women are perceived in society, I cannot tolerate a tradition that appropriates and caricatures them. The harm done to society by drag queens is incalculable. I'm literally pissing and shitting myself right now.
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Re: My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

Unread postby Capt._Trips » 28 February 2020, 02:16

Brenden wrote:
Eryx wrote:That's why, I think, people do drag. They want to be as gay as possible to make people understand. To make people accept. To show everyone else that feminine men can exist and be alive and do whatever they want without any sort of persecution for unchangeable traits. Drag is an exaggeration because we want to reach a point where any sort of spectrum of what it means to be a ´´man can be done without harassment. Villainizing that, in my opinion, is nothing else but cowardice.

Gay ≠ feminine, and the pinnacle of homosexuality is not man dressed as an exaggerated caricature of women. LOL!


You take this wayyyyyyy to seriously. Lol. No one doing drag is spending nearly as much time reading feminists sites as you are. Drag is silly and stupid. And sometimes political and serious. But no one is taking as serious as you are.
Drag is fun and exaggerated and surreal. It has very little to with gays or straights. Or male/female. It's just a fun way to play with gender and expectations that you have. It's not offensive. Unless you want it to be..
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Re: My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

Unread postby Capt._Trips » 28 February 2020, 02:19

Are you saying that drag queens are transsexuals?
Thats not true at all. Lol
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Re: My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

Unread postby Brenden » 28 February 2020, 02:23

Capt._Trips wrote:
Brenden wrote:
Eryx wrote:That's why, I think, people do drag. They want to be as gay as possible to make people understand. To make people accept. To show everyone else that feminine men can exist and be alive and do whatever they want without any sort of persecution for unchangeable traits. Drag is an exaggeration because we want to reach a point where any sort of spectrum of what it means to be a ´´man can be done without harassment. Villainizing that, in my opinion, is nothing else but cowardice.

Gay ≠ feminine, and the pinnacle of homosexuality is not man dressed as an exaggerated caricature of women. LOL!

You take this wayyyyyyy to seriously. Lol. No one doing drag is spending nearly as much time reading feminists sites as you are. Drag is silly and stupid. And sometimes political and serious. But no one is taking as serious as you are.
Drag is fun and exaggerated and surreal. It has very little to with gays or straights. Or male/female. It's just a fun way to play with gender and expectations that you have. It's not offensive. Unless you want it to be..

I was commenting on these points, which imply that being as gay as possible means doing drag and gayness itself is feminine.

Also, drag is just ridiculous. I'm not taking it seriously, I just think the feminists have a pretty valid gripe with it.
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Re: My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

Unread postby Brenden » 28 February 2020, 02:24

Capt._Trips wrote:Are you saying that drag queens are transsexuals?
Thats not true at all. Lol

Do you know that commas delineate seperate items on a list?
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Re: My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

Unread postby Capt._Trips » 28 February 2020, 02:31

Brenden wrote:
Capt._Trips wrote:Are you saying that drag queens are transsexuals?
Thats not true at all. Lol

I dont want to be the asshole.
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Re: My boyfriend is uncomfortable with drag - what do I do ?

Unread postby Derek » 28 February 2020, 02:38

Brenden wrote:Also, drag is just ridiculous. I'm not taking it seriously, I just think the feminists have a pretty valid gripe with it.

I don't care for it either, but my distaste doesn't animate me nearly enough to write a post like the one you deleted to a kid looking for advice.
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