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Philosophical question.

Unread postby mishka » 31 January 2021, 00:12

Why do some gay men dress like women if they like men.
Asking as from a scientific point of view not to offend anyone.
Do they think that they are a women trapped in a man's body?
I am not talking about the answers such " because I like it" More looking at the roots of reasoning for such behavior.
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Re: Philosophical question.

Unread postby Magic J » 31 January 2021, 01:40

Hello, mouse.

This part of the question:
mishka wrote:Why do some gay men dress like women...

Should be separated from this part:
mishka wrote:...if they like men

Otherwise, I don't quite follow your reasoning. Surely it is within the realms of possibility that a man could wear items of feminine clothing whilst being attracted to men? Or doing so and still thinking of oneself as a man?

To address the first part, though: Why not? Why do so many straight men do so?

mishka wrote:Asking as from a scientific point of view not to offend anyone.

No worries, I don't have human emotions and as such cannot feel offended. I am sometimes offensive, though. Sorry about that.

mishka wrote:Do they think that they are a women trapped in a man's body?

In general, very likely no, they don't. But I assume that it's a possibility for some. If you're referring to people "assigned" male who variously wish to be a woman, or identify as a woman, and wish be seen as such (as opposed to simply wearing clothes typically associated with women), then I assume they would tell you that they are transgender, which is a sometimes related but essentially distinct phenomenon to that of homosexuality.

mishka wrote:I am not talking about the answers such " because I like it" More looking at the roots of reasoning for such behavior.

I mean... that's probably going to be the root reason that you're gonna get. Eventually, it comes back to desire, the exact content of which is complex and variable, of course. Here are a few off the top of my head: they like the look of the clothing, or the breadth of style if can afford; they would like to present as more feminine for whatever reason; they consciously wish to subvert and challenge ideas of how a man should dress; they feel that it better suits who they are, and so on and so forth.
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Re: Philosophical question.

Unread postby Derek » 31 January 2021, 02:14

mishka wrote:I am not talking about the answers such " because I like it" More looking at the roots of reasoning for such behavior.

What would you imagine such a thing to be? I don't think there's a part of the brain that can be identified as the crossdressing lobe.

If you're referring to, like, drag, it's typically performed by feminine gay men who describe it as a fun means of creative expression. I'm not sure if "because they like it" isn't the best answer you'll find.
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Re: Philosophical question.

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 31 January 2021, 07:10

Derek wrote:If you're referring to, like, drag, it's typically performed by feminine gay men who describe it as a fun means of creative expression. I'm not sure if "because they like it" isn't the best answer you'll find.

But it isn’t like we can’t look more deeply into the topic, though. Why do more effeminate gay men seem to gravitate toward drag? Why are some gay men more effeminate than others? Effeminate gay men do like a number of very particular things that other effeminate gay men like that don’t seem to be satisfactorily answered by “they just do.”
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Re: Philosophical question.

Unread postby Derek » 31 January 2021, 07:16

Why is moving in together a date for lesbians? Why do straight guys wear basketball shorts even when it's snowing? Why do straight girls devote unlimited psychic energy into convincing each other and themselves that they're attracted to lipless British aliens? They just do, fam. I don't know what explanation is to be found.
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Re: Philosophical question.

Unread postby René » 31 January 2021, 11:09

I understand what you're saying, Mishka, and I don't get it either.
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Re: Philosophical question.

Unread postby Marmaduke » 31 January 2021, 12:14

I believe it was Nietzsche that found himself similarly consumed by this quandary in his latter years, truly one of the great philosophical unknowns of our time.

Not only gay men dress like women. Men that dress like women do so for a variety of reasons, from wanting an outlet for more feminine leanings that they feel otherwise unable to process, to exploring the lines between sex and gender, to doing it simply because they think it’s fun. Some feel trapped in the wrong gender, I don’t believe most do.

You’re grossly oversimplifying a nuanced and varied behavioural trait, and then wrongly attributing it to sexuality. It’s got nothing to do with being gay. Reassess your thesis. Friedrich looks upon your posit from heaven with not-but off-hand derision.
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Re: Philosophical question.

Unread postby GaySpacePirateKing » 31 January 2021, 13:06

mishka wrote:Asking as from a scientific point of view not to offend anyone.


Its people you are dealing with so if you really want to understand then a scientific point of view should also be an honest and empathic point of view.

mishka wrote:More looking at the roots of reasoning for such behavior.


Again it reads as if you are treating people as mere subjects of scientific enquiry.

Honestly its as simple as talking politely with people and not say for example cutting them up and looking at their brains or subjecting them to psychiatric interrogations all the while looking for "reasoning" behind "such behaviour". I mean what would a scientific approach really look like here?

Think your approaching it wrong. If your genuine then just talk to people and try to understand them. Don't need science for that.
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Re: Philosophical question.

Unread postby GaySpacePirateKing » 31 January 2021, 13:44

This is relevant, they talk about drag and the reasons some are doing it. Also the sexual innuendo between them both is hilarious "I rode you here" lol. :rofl:

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Re: Philosophical question.

Unread postby Marmaduke » 31 January 2021, 13:50

I believe it was Socrates, though it may well have been Aristotle, that said “The simple virtue of donning a wig does not crown RuPaul the spokesman for the entire gamut of crossdressing, nor do all cross dressers practice drag”
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Re: Philosophical question.

Unread postby GaySpacePirateKing » 31 January 2021, 14:09

Marmaduke wrote:I believe it was Socrates, though it may well have been Aristotle, that said “The simple virtue of donning a wig does not crown RuPaul the spokesman for the entire gamut of crossdressing, nor do all cross dressers practice drag”


He is gay and does drag therefore it seems to me that his experiences with that are relevant here, and in the interview he did also give some reasons as to why people do drag, escapism and rebellion for example.

I didn't mean to imply that he was a spokesperson on behalf of all people who cross dress or practice drag though.
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Re: Philosophical question.

Unread postby Marmaduke » 31 January 2021, 14:17

GaySpacePirateKing wrote:
Marmaduke wrote:I believe it was Socrates, though it may well have been Aristotle, that said “The simple virtue of donning a wig does not crown RuPaul the spokesman for the entire gamut of crossdressing, nor do all cross dressers practice drag”


He is gay and does drag therefore it seems to me that his experiences with that are relevant here, and in the interview he did also give some reasons as to why people do drag, escapism and rebellion for example.

I didn't mean to imply that he was a spokesperson on behalf of all people who cross dress or practice drag though.

Plato wrote:te desiderari in parte
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Re: Philosophical question.

Unread postby GaySpacePirateKing » 31 January 2021, 14:32

Marmaduke wrote:te desiderari in parte


So what's your point then? That he shouldn't be exemplified? Pretty sure I got that neither did I intend to do so.

Doesn't change the fact he is a gay guy who does drag so you can still listen to his experience.
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Re: Philosophical question.

Unread postby Marmaduke » 31 January 2021, 14:38

GaySpacePirateKing wrote:
Marmaduke wrote:te desiderari in parte


So what's your point then? That he shouldn't be exemplified? Pretty sure I got that neither did I intend to do so.

Doesn't change the fact he is a gay guy who does drag so you can still listen to his experience.

No. Mine is a brush tasked to a broader canvas. This question is stupid. Offensively stupid. And engaging with it on any legitimate basis is stupid.

Anyone who has spent more than the 6 seconds it takes to jump to a conclusion they're too stupid to be critical of knows that if you can think of a reason for someone to wear clothes not traditionally associated with their gender, there is someone in the incredibly broad spectrum of probability that is humanity who wears a dress for that reason.


Nietzsche didn’t actually give a fuck about crossdressing, well, as far as anyone knows. Nor did Socrates, Aristotle or Plato. Because this isn’t philosophy. It’s fucking stupid.

Stop encouraging ignorance but crediting it with even the faintest hint of legitimacy.
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Re: Philosophical question.

Unread postby GaySpacePirateKing » 31 January 2021, 14:55

Marmaduke wrote:No. Mine is a brush tasked to a broader canvas. This question is stupid. Offensively stupid. And engaging with it on any legitimate basis is stupid.

Anyone who has spent more than the 6 seconds it takes to jump to a conclusion they're too stupid to be critical of knows that if you can think of a reason for someone to wear clothes not traditionally associated with their gender, there is someone in the incredibly broad spectrum of probability that is humanity who wears a dress for that reason.

Nietzsche didn’t actually give a fuck about crossdressing, well, as far as anyone knows. Nor did Socrates, Aristotle or Plato. Because this isn’t philosophy. It’s fucking stupid.

Stop encouraging ignorance but crediting it with even the faintest hint of legitimacy.


I don't actually mind when people ask ignorant questions and we should probably answer them or else ignorance will remain.

It's when people try to set up some 'debate' on an issue which shouldn't be of debate so that they can make their views appear as an intellectual position rather than just bigotry that I hate.
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Re: Philosophical question.

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 31 January 2021, 16:14

GaySpacePirateKing wrote:This is relevant, they talk about drag and the reasons some are doing it. Also the sexual innuendo between them both is hilarious "I rode you here" lol. :rofl:



I thought this old comment by Davey’s was particularly insightful about the whole drag phenomenon, at least as someone who had never looked into it out of a complete lack of interest.


Edit: I spelled Davey’s name as Dave
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Re: Philosophical question.

Unread postby Magic J » 31 January 2021, 16:57

Marmaduke wrote:Nietzsche didn’t actually give a fuck about crossdressing, well, as far as anyone knows.

Thought you were serious. Saved me a fruitless search through Scholar.

He was certainly interested in the wider issue of gender, though. Perhaps even more than he could articulate. Aside from the overt misogyny, anyway. Nietzsche was a dreadful man. Dreadful by societal standards of man, I mean. All weak and sickly, a poindexter, he cried an awful lot, and was far from the Prussian martial ideal. Burst into tears to see a horse mistreated, and then went profoundly insane. Most unlike the masculine, towering giants that Zarathustra heralded. I sometimes like to assume that the entirety of his work is an attempt at the self-deceit and vanity he professed to despise. Because that's just really funny.

Do you believe that? :P

Marmaduke wrote:...engaging with it on any legitimate basis is stupid

Soz. Stupidity is all too human. :P

Anyway, Mouse seems to have departed. Perhaps they will return with more concrete enquiries. I live in anticipation.
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Re: Philosophical question.

Unread postby GaySpacePirateKing » 31 January 2021, 17:09

poolerboy0077 wrote:Dave’s was particularly insightful about the whole drag phenomenon, at least as someone who had never looked into it out of a complete lack of interest.


I don't get it. Is he saying people doing drag steal from black female culture or that borrowing from another culture is ok?
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Re: Philosophical question.

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 31 January 2021, 23:58

GaySpacePirateKing wrote:
poolerboy0077 wrote:Dave’s was particularly insightful about the whole drag phenomenon, at least as someone who had never looked into it out of a complete lack of interest.


I don't get it. Is he saying people doing drag steal from black female culture or that borrowing from another culture is ok?

I think he’s saying that they assume the role of a powerful woman when they dress and drag and perform. I suppose that makes sense considering how a lot of them fawn over “strong” females in pop music.
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Re: Philosophical question.

Unread postby McTaggartfan » 7 February 2021, 04:23

For the record, this isn't really a philosophical question. Just saying... Don't hate me lol
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