State of the Union.

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State of the Union.

Unread postby PopTart » 9 December 2018, 13:24

So this may sink like a lead ballon as a topic, politics and current events being, not the most favoured topic of conversation amongst many, including myself at times :D

But I have noticed we have alot of European forum members and some politically minded international members, who might have and share an opinion here.

With Brexit in a complete shambles here in the UK, with a potential rejection of Theresa Mays proposed Brexit deal, there is an increasing possibility of a general election or even, another referendum on Brexit from the European Union.

I abstained in the last, partly because I wasn't convinced by either sides arguements and I wanted to be convinced :nod:

Remain focused so much on the negatives, while neglecting to asnwer the foremost questions I had, in regards to what the UK's future and our goals should be, when staying in the European Union. I was also largely put off by Remains attempts to brandish anyone who might have reason to vote Brexit, was doing so because they were regressive right, racist or bigoted. I have friends and colleagues who voted Brexit, good people who were made to feel that their political or social reasons for making the choice they did, was invalid and mere window dressing for some underlying hatred of anything "other" Thats a form of politics I have no time for. I can't bear that it seems to be becoming the go-to method of winning political debates. It's a sad day for democracy in general. :(

Leavers or Brexiteers, peddled alot of false information, I knew much of what they had to say was rhetoric, jingoist and straight up bullshit, but they dared to seek to portray a positive future, with potential atleast, in a Brexit scenario, I think that spoke to alot of people and had I not my own views, I may well have been swayed by that alone, the going would be hard, but the chance for positive change is a powerful motivator. Alas, I do like the idea of Political Unity in Europe.

So my question (or questions) is this.

If a second referendum came about and the electorate voted to remain, how likely do you think it is, the European community would welcome such a vote?

Do you feel that political reform within the EU, is something that is either achieveable or desireable?

Where do YOU stand on ever increasing political and economical integration within Europe?
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Re: State of the Union.

Unread postby Felice » 9 December 2018, 13:53

I think with the current goverment or as long as the "tories" are in charge ..I don't think they can give the best results or even The desired effect of Brexit .

Most who did are in it for the money ,They lied about many stuff and they just want to get out of the Eu ..Not the people who voted but the Politicians that did .

I mean in the end it's a union and that is better than being a stand alone country .
Now i'm not saying that the EU Doesn't Has it's flaws or some questionable members ...But in the end a union is better And safer ..Also the Free movement around Europe is the biggest Plus in my book .. :lol:

Tho some practices i don't like ...As in when europeans who came from a poorer country , Then go to the uk and take benefits to send it back to their home country ..IT's NOT FAIR !! ..Especially when it comes at the expense of another Uk citizen.

But still in my opinion . I think being in the Eu is better than gambling with the UK's future .
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Re: State of the Union.

Unread postby Tommiebee » 9 December 2018, 13:56

Since I'm not a player in the EU issue, I don't really have a vote.
But of course I have an opinion...
:D
To be honest based on what I've read, the EU government seems to be applying a wrecking ball to the indigenous population while imposing its own ideas on everything from local customs to local standards.
:|
It's a concept that doesn't sit that well with me. Rather than look at the television to discover what the weather is, I would much prefer to look out over my back porch to see it.

But I live in a rural area with more deer, bear and squirrels than people.
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Re: State of the Union.

Unread postby xrayspex78 » 9 December 2018, 14:18

Because PopTart started this thread I’ll leave this here :D

935CDE76-D519-4FAE-B63B-B4E3348B1B1D.jpeg


Happy Birthday!!!!
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Re: State of the Union.

Unread postby PopTart » 9 December 2018, 14:20

I'll be honest, I like the idea of a united Europe. I think we brits have a tendency to want to have the best of both worlds, being a part or it, while keeping one foot out, it was never going to last long! I'm an advocate for total integration in some form, not just single currency, military and the like, but political unity too.

I'd just like to see a democractic, representative federal or parliamentary system on the "international" level, with smaller direct democracy local gonverment, beneath. With the federal or parliamentary government setting large scale policy, while local concerns can be dealt with respectfully by local poeples. Eliminating some of the feelings or homogenisation of culture and region specific values and concerns.

My misgivings come from the overly complex and unbelieveably labyrinthian nature of hte EU beauracracy, the lack of real power in the Eu parliament and the fact the EU's beauractatic nature, leads to sweeping and often times detrimental policies, such as Article 13, which on the surface is a good idea, but neglects to recognise the harm it does to the little people.

On the one hand, the EU seeks to bring to task global mega corporations, make them accountable, while at the same time, endorses some very restrictive practices, that actually harm freedoms and liberties on the internet and the cynical part of me thinks that alot of this comes from the desire to curtail popularism in all it's forms.

The structure of the EU is built around that concept, many of it's policies point towards that goal and I do agree that popularism is a concern, it's had devestating effect in Europe. But I fear just as much an Oligarchic tyranny of the intellectual or presumed intellectual elite, appointed by politicians that admittedly are democractically elected, but that are little more in many european countries, than the best of a bad bunch, who seem to regard the common people of Europe as being too stupid to make up their own minds and be decent human beings without someone on the top, sign posting what the "right" choices are.

I can get behind remaining, but I think to do so, I need to believe that meaningful reform in the EU is possible and the concerns of regular people and individuals are given due consideration and not arbitrarly dismissed for the priority of the political establishments vision of Europe.

PS Thanks Xray! :keke: :heart: :hug:
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Re: State of the Union.

Unread postby PopTart » 9 December 2018, 14:43

Felice wrote:I think with the current goverment or as long as the "tories" are in charge ..I don't think they can give the best results or even The desired effect of Brexit .

Honestly, I don't like the Tories that much, too much infighting, back biting and some of their policies are a little too restrictive or unambitious for my liking. But the tories as they are now, aren't the tories of the past, like the other parties, they've morphed into "new politics" more concerned with swift and immediate political gains in the court of public opinion, than actually sticking to some political or idealogical viewpoint and agenda. Policies flip flop from being firmly supported to being dismissed because of public backlash. None of the political parties here, have the conviction anymore, to stick to anything, to be assertive and to take a hit in the polls for what they believe is the best course of action. No-one wants to take a chance and risk losing out in the next election. It's all about staying in or getting in and not about true statemanship. :(

Felice wrote:I mean in the end it's a union and that is better than being a stand alone country .
Now i'm not saying that the EU Doesn't Has it's flaws or some questionable members ...But in the end a union is better And safer ..Also the Free movement around Europe is the biggest Plus in my book .. :lol:

Yes and no. I think going forward, a strong unified super state, has more leverage ont he international stage, but the EU has some very draconian and restrictive trade practices, that leave alot of disparity between the major three economies and smaller ones in the EU. In it's bid to protect the current balance and status quo in Europe, it hampers smaller economies from being genuinely competetive insinde and outside fo the EU. It's a double edged swrod really. :shrug:

Felice wrote:Tho some practices i don't like ...As in when europeans who came from a poorer country , Then go to the uk and take benefits to send it back to their home country ..IT's NOT FAIR !! ..Especially when it comes at the expense of another Uk citizen.

Honestly, the European migrants are often times hard working and contribute alot to the economy here. The biggest issue is "illegal immigrants" who I understand have good cause and reason to migrate to seek better circumstances here, I don't begrudge them that. But there are too many companies, that will employ illegals off the books, often times at lower than the legal minimum wage (illiegals aren't in a position to complain or appeal to the government, they aren't here legally) and this isn't a fault with the EU, that's a fault with the UK government and it's handling of companies that practice this.

I know a cleaning company that has been found to employ illegals at below minimum wage with awful working conditions, that when they have been found out, have had to pay, what is int he grand scheme of things, a paltry sum, compared to the financial benefits and savings they make, employing illegals at lower rates :shrug: Those low skill jobs then suffer a breakdown in earning potential that makes it hard for tax paying nationals to work in those fields and get by again, largely due to UK policies and practices that are causing massive wage and wealth inequility. Again, nothing to do with the EU, One of the reasons I dismissed Brexiteers use of migration as a point for leaving.

Felice wrote:But still in my opinion . I think being in the Eu is better than gambling with the UK's future .

I'd prefer to remain in a Europe that doesn't look, politically speaking, as it does now, I'm also not against the potential that might exist if we leave, but I doubt the effectivity or capability of the current UK political establishment, to make good on the potential. :shrug:

Damned if we do, damned if we don't! :rofl:
Tommiebee wrote:To be honest based on what I've read, the EU government seems to be applying a wrecking ball to the indigenous population while imposing its own ideas on everything from local customs to local standards.
:|
It's a concept that doesn't sit that well with me. Rather than look at the television to discover what the weather is, I would much prefer to look out over my back porch to see it.

I do think there is a grain of truth in this, even when it's derided by ardent EU supporters as being "nationalistic sentiment" I think there is a drive to homogenise culture, to make integration easier, it fails to respect regional cultural views and opinions. alot of people react poorly to that.
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Re: State of the Union.

Unread postby Felice » 9 December 2018, 14:50

the European migrants are often times hard working

I'm not talking about the ones that came here working legally or hard ..I'm talking about those who come to take benefit money while staying at home and sending it back to their home country ...

I mean the uk is VAST and it needs a MASSIVE number of migrants to work the country , ESPECIALLY in London .
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Re: State of the Union.

Unread postby PopTart » 9 December 2018, 15:02

Felice wrote:
the European migrants are often times hard working

I'm not talking about the ones that came here working legally or hard ..I'm talking about those who come to take benefit money while staying at home and sending it back to their home country ...

I mean the uk is VAST and it needs a MASSIVE number of migrants to work the country , ESPECIALLY in London .

There is an arguement to be made about how much wealth passes out of hte country I guess. I know of polish colleagues who worked hard and sent much of their earnings back home to build homes and purchase land there, not unreasonable to do, but i know that some of my fellow Brits felt resentful, when they struggled to pay private or social housing rent, let alone buy land or build houses.

I think it's easier to blame those people for ones problems than demand the government do something meaningful, like reform, to address the short comings in our own country. :shrug:

I'm extremely reluctant to address the matter of benefits, being used by migrants, sending said benefits home. I'm not nearly informed enough to say if that actually happens, or if it's just alot of propaganda in the media and the wider social subconcious. I know benefits are abused by nationals, I have a realtive that does so. I think the system needs reform, like so many others here :shrug:

But thats something that needs to happen "in-house" it's not a responsiibility of or caused by, the EU.
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Re: State of the Union.

Unread postby Felice » 9 December 2018, 15:12

Why do you think people voted to leave Poptart ??

at least your relatives ..why did they vote ??
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Re: State of the Union.

Unread postby Felice » 9 December 2018, 15:23

Btw i'm not anti immigration or anything ..IF i sounded like that sorry to anyone who is reading.
It's just i'm anti Abusing the benefit system by non citizen's as it creates a BIG issue .
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Re: State of the Union.

Unread postby Marmaduke » 9 December 2018, 15:37

I voted to leave last time around.

If the European Union was a project to legitimately merge and govern all member states as a new united super-state under one central government then I would support it. However, it isn’t.

I feel, in it’s current form, that the EU has lost sight of what it should be doing and has become a bureaucratic behemoth that doesn’t serve the interests of all parties equally, has proven itself to be a platform open to abuse by some and which does not operate in a democratic fashion. I voted to leave on the point of principal that a lot of what the EU does is fundamentally undemocratic to the people affected by its decisions.

The arguments presently presented in the media, that it’s all about trade with China and immigration, are nonsense.

Germany already does more than 5 times more trade that us with China from within the EU, and somehow nobody is addressing that a market of some 80 million is fundamentally less attractive to trade with than a market of 500 million.

We as a country presently rely on immigration in several key areas, notes that nursing and the NHS at large. We rely on it so much that taking control of our borders will just mean us having to approve their entry case by case rather than as a more efficient matter of mutual agreement.

The problem with Brexit is the same problem faced by most geo-political issues; the news media. None of us question a system which is apparently reporting issues from the perspective that there must be a better deal than the one currently offered, but offers absolutely no insight into what such an alternative might concievably be. And so every thinks that the deal on offer must be some shit deal because we failed to negotiate. Why must there be a better option? We have no position of strength from which to negotiate and the EU has a strong interest in seeing that our leaving the union does not go our way. The deal on offer was probably hard fought for and may well represent the best offer we can achieve. I’ve certainly not seen any persuasive argument that to convince me it isn’t.

If there was another referendum, I would vote to leave again because all the concerns I had about the EU before remain largely unchanged now. I would vote the same way knowing that to leave will be economically damaging. I would vote the same way knowing that it is not in our financial or political interests to leave. I would vote that way because I think it’s a matter of principal, a principal that hasn’t changed, that we shouldn’t be complicit in the system as it currently is and that the strongest way of making the statement that the EU needs serious work is to show that we are willing to leave.

I would also like to clarify that good deal or not, I have no faith in Teresa May. She did a terrible job as Home Secretary and hasn’t shown herself to be any more effective in her current position. However, if she goes and Michael Gove ends up as the Leader of the Conservatives, I will leave the country. I shit thee not, I will read the headline and immediately book and Uber to the airport to board the next available flight.
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Re: State of the Union.

Unread postby PopTart » 9 December 2018, 15:56

Felice wrote:Why do you think people voted to leave Poptart ??

at least your relatives ..why did they vote ??

Honestly, I do think some people voted, primarily over immigration and what they percieve to be the tide of dark skinned, culturally divergent peoples to the UK :(

There is truth in that assertion. But for alot of people, it is more complex than that.

The vast majority of people I've known and worked with, have absolutely no problem with migrants, European or otherwise. Many DO have issues over intergration but fail to realise that integration is something that needs to be worked on by both sides. Sad to say, white flight is a thing. I suspect that has informed some peoples attitudes about immigration.

I think mostly, people have mis-identified the causes of inequalty in the UK, as being the result of EU membership. We have a really sweet deal really, that many other European nations likely envy and I think alot of British people don't understand that.

Thats because certain staple industries have got a raw deal in the otherwise lopsided deal in the Uk's net benefit.

Take fishing for example, alot of people in fishing towns have watched EU fishers less than 40 miles off the coast of UK waters, fish in what was once UK specific seas, no longer able to compete with Danish fishers or Norwegian fishers, entire towns whose economies relied on fishing have fallen into slumps, becoming empty and depressed economically. I think there is a vlaid issue here and people who point to it are right to do so, but other economic problems are purely the result of UK specific policy but people link one economiclly justifed issue, to another that is less so. Misunderstanding that the fault lies here at home, first and foremost.

Take for example the decision to privatise the Rail network, it was needed at the time due to chronic mismanagement and mis-spending by the national Network Rail, now alot of the Rail network is owned by other European Governments nationally owned railways. In other words, our own government isn't allowed to own the industry, but the german government can, or the French government in relation to Energy and power, to alot of people, this is madness and demonstrates EU domination in the UK economy and infrastructure.

Instead of identifying that the problem is in our own policy and the capability of our own nationally run services to do a decent job, short comings both economic and in certain services, are blamed on the EU.

people misunderstand, we've never been that invested in the EU project, few people take notice of who the current MEP is and couldn't name them, few people pay much attention to what actually happens in the EU. Hell few people pay enough attention to politics in the UK parliament until it has a direct impact on us.

So it becomes easier to take genuine issues about SOME valid points regarding the UK's relationship with the EU and compound or conflate them, with issues that wholely down to our own, very broken political system. A disgusting media, both televised and tabloid, only encourage contention and divisiveness, polaraising attitudes.

There are some, like myself who have misgivings about the political format of the EU but I think, people with those opinions are fewer.

Largely it's misplaced blame, misunderstanding and for a smaller element, nationalist sentiments, in the face of increasing globalisation.

Thats my take on it.
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Re: State of the Union.

Unread postby PopTart » 9 December 2018, 15:59

Marmaduke wrote:I voted to leave last time around.

If the European Union was a project to legitimately merge and govern all member states as a new united super-state under one central government then I would support it. However, it isn’t.

I feel, in it’s current form, that the EU has lost sight of what it should be doing and has become a bureaucratic behemoth that doesn’t serve the interests of all parties equally, has proven itself to be a platform open to abuse by some and which does not operate in a democratic fashion. I voted to leave on the point of principal that a lot of what the EU does is fundamentally undemocratic to the people affected by its decisions.

The arguments presently presented in the media, that it’s all about trade with China and immigration, are nonsense.

Germany already does more than 5 times more trade that us with China from within the EU, and somehow nobody is addressing that a market of some 80 million is fundamentally less attractive to trade with than a market of 500 million.

We as a country presently rely on immigration in several key areas, notes that nursing and the NHS at large. We rely on it so much that taking control of our borders will just mean us having to approve their entry case by case rather than as a more efficient matter of mutual agreement.

The problem with Brexit is the same problem faced by most geo-political issues; the news media. None of us question a system which is apparently reporting issues from the perspective that there must be a better deal than the one currently offered, but offers absolutely no insight into what such an alternative might concievably be. And so every thinks that the deal on offer must be some shit deal because we failed to negotiate. Why must there be a better option? We have no position of strength from which to negotiate and the EU has a strong interest in seeing that our leaving the union does not go our way. The deal on offer was probably hard fought for and may well represent the best offer we can achieve. I’ve certainly not seen any persuasive argument that to convince me it isn’t.

If there was another referendum, I would vote to leave again because all the concerns I had about the EU before remain largely unchanged now. I would vote the same way knowing that to leave will be economically damaging. I would vote the same way knowing that it is not in our financial or political interests to leave. I would vote that way because I think it’s a matter of principal, a principal that hasn’t changed, that we shouldn’t be complicit in the system as it currently is and that the strongest way of making the statement that the EU needs serious work is to show that we are willing to leave.

I would also like to clarify that good deal or not, I have no faith in Teresa May. She did a terrible job as Home Secretary and hasn’t shown herself to be any more effective in her current position. However, if she goes and Michael Gove ends up as the Leader of the Conservatives, I will leave the country. I shit thee not, I will read the headline and immediately book and Uber to the airport to board the next available flight.

:keke: This is how I feel about it, I just can't decide if leaving is preferable to staying and trying to rally support for meaningful reform, with the likes of Poland, Greece, Italy and others. :shrug:
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Re: State of the Union.

Unread postby Tommiebee » 9 December 2018, 20:38

Felice wrote:Btw i'm not anti immigration or anything ..IF i sounded like that sorry to anyone who is reading.
It's just i'm anti Abusing the benefit system by non citizen's as it creates a BIG issue .

Like so many citizens in the United States I am descended from immigrants.
I have nothing against immigration and immigrants.
But I have a great deal against those who abuse the system and violate all standards of "fair play" in an effort to gain an unfair advantage. Taking advantage of a society's good will and generosity wears thin after a while.
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Re: State of the Union.

Unread postby Satsuma » 9 December 2018, 20:39

Tommiebee wrote:Like so many citizens in the United States I am descended from immigrants.
I have nothing against immigration and immigrants.
But I have a great deal against those who abuse the system and violate all standards of "fair play" in an effort to gain an unfair advantage. Taking advantage of a society's good will and generosity wears thin after a while.


A lot of immigrants are doctors and such though too :(
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Re: State of the Union.

Unread postby Felice » 9 December 2018, 20:44

Tommiebee wrote:
Felice wrote:Btw i'm not anti immigration or anything ..IF i sounded like that sorry to anyone who is reading.
It's just i'm anti Abusing the benefit system by non citizen's as it creates a BIG issue .

Like so many citizens in the United States I am descended from immigrants.
I have nothing against immigration and immigrants.
But I have a great deal against those who abuse the system and violate all standards of "fair play" in an effort to gain an unfair advantage. Taking advantage of a society's good will and generosity wears thin after a while.


Exactly .. I mean enter the country legally .Why not do that ??
however, Refugees are a different matter ..That i agree with helping them 100% .

Btw what do you mean by "fair play" ?? If they are legal immigrants then all is fair play no ??
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Re: State of the Union.

Unread postby Tommiebee » 9 December 2018, 20:51

Zoop wrote:
Tommiebee wrote:Like so many citizens in the United States I am descended from immigrants.
I have nothing against immigration and immigrants.
But I have a great deal against those who abuse the system and violate all standards of "fair play" in an effort to gain an unfair advantage. Taking advantage of a society's good will and generosity wears thin after a while.


A lot of immigrants are doctors and such though too :(

Same here.
I don't consider someone who goes to medical school then pursues licensing to be taking unfair advantage of the system.
But by "a lot" do you think that doctors represent even 10% of immigrants?
If that were true there wouldn't be a shortage of doctors.
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Re: State of the Union.

Unread postby BlackBoi666 » 9 December 2018, 22:40

racial demographics dictate nation quality. and judging the demographic as a whole is more important than judging an individual, since it is not the individual alone, that builds the nation.
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