2020 Presidential Election | General

Discuss the news, current events, politics, etc.

If the election were held today and you could vote in it, who would you vote for?

Poll ended at 3 November 2020, 10:58

Donald Trump (Republican)
1
5%
Joe Biden (Democratic)
15
68%
Jo Jorgensen (Libertarian)
1
5%
Howie Hawkins (Green)
2
9%
Brock Pierce (independent)
0
No votes
Kanye West (Birthday Party)
1
5%
other (e.g., write-in)
2
9%
 
Total votes : 22

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 14 October 2020, 22:28

Chomsky obviously read this thread and has now responded to Derek’s black separatist ramble:

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Derek » 14 October 2020, 23:17

I love Briahna. She's one of my favorite people in the political commentary class. And the unadulterated hatred libs feel for her is, like, academically fascinating.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Derek » 16 October 2020, 02:24

You know pooler, you've been very quiet this whole time (for you, anyway). What do you think about this argument? Are you black, red, and pink pilled like me?
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 16 October 2020, 18:23

I mean, I still don’t get how not voting for Biden would somehow bring us closer to anything we’d ultimately want. If Trump wins a second term, how likely would a Bernie-type be as the front runner in the subsequent election? Chomsky was a broken record in that podcast exchange, but it’s the only voice that made any sense realistically. If you don’t think there’s an impending, existential threat, then picking now as a time to take a gamble might make sense.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby John27 » 24 October 2020, 23:00

poolerboy0077 wrote:I mean, I still don’t get how not voting for Biden would somehow bring us closer to anything we’d ultimately want. If Trump wins a second term, how likely would a Bernie-type be as the front runner in the subsequent election?


I won't argue against this. But I'll say that meanwhile, I have to wonder how voting for Biden will bring up closer to anything we want. And if Biden wins, what are the chances of a Bernie-type being front runner next election? And if such a figure does emerge, the Democratic Party will do anything and everything to stop him or her.

It's said that no matter what happens with Biden, the Democratic Party will learn the wrong lesson. If he loses, it's because he went too far left. If he wins, it's proof everyone wants establishment Democrats. (Actually, I wonder if the Democratic Party isn't well aware that more and more people don't like establishment Democratic policy. But they'll continue to push the "we need to be moderate" message, because that is what serves their interests and the interests of the important donors and backers.)
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Derek » 24 October 2020, 23:38

I've hear Biden apologists argue that we can't afford to take the long-term direction of the party into consideration, because Trump represents America's imminent fall into full-blown fascism, and we must defeat him at literally any cost. Do you guys buy that?
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby John27 » 25 October 2020, 00:26

Derek wrote:Do you guys buy that?


Not really. But I guess I subscribe to the view that the problems of Trump are overstated, and the problems Biden has are understated.

Indeed, while I worry about the impact of 4 more years of Trump, I also really worry about the impact of a Biden presidency. I can see the stage set for some Republican to come along in the future and win the presidency, who will be so awful that the MSNBC crowd will say how much they "miss Trump." Just like Trump has them missing Bush.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Jzone » 25 October 2020, 02:21

Derek wrote:I've hear Biden apologists argue that we can't afford to take the long-term direction of the party into consideration, because Trump represents America's imminent fall into full-blown fascism, and we must defeat him at literally any cost. Do you guys buy that?

I am no Biden apologist. Sanders would have my support, but I'll take Biden any time over four more years of Trump. Don't fall for the good/evil or fascist/communist bullshit that the extremes of either party are peddling. Trump represents a minority of Americans and their foolish ideals. Four more years would drag us further down in our international standing, national debt, and disastrous covid response.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Derek » 25 October 2020, 02:46

Jzone wrote:
Derek wrote:I've hear Biden apologists argue that we can't afford to take the long-term direction of the party into consideration, because Trump represents America's imminent fall into full-blown fascism, and we must defeat him at literally any cost. Do you guys buy that?

I am no Biden apologist. Sanders would have my support, but I'll take Biden any time over four more years of Trump. Don't fall for the good/evil or fascist/communist bullshit that the extremes of either party are peddling. Trump represents a minority of Americans and their foolish ideals. Four more years would drag us further down in our international standing, national debt, and disastrous covid response.

I've repeated myself a lot in this thread. The question isn't just the next four years, it's the long-term direction of the party. So if Trump doesn't represent an immediate, existential threat, then it's appropriate to consider withholding your support from the democrats as part of an attempt to pressure them further left.

Also repeating myself, the damage Trump has done to our international standing is an incredibly good thing, to the point that it actually affects my decision-making.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby John27 » 25 October 2020, 03:28

One thing that I find interesting is the talk about "we'll elect Biden, and then push him left." I think the four year outline of events in this accurately describes the reality of what will happen:
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby John27 » 25 October 2020, 03:40

And as for international standing... I'm not sure 4 more years of Trump would make a difference, and I'm not sure that long term the first four years will really have a lasting impact. This is based on how bad our reputation was under Bush. I remember stories about Americans dressing and acting like they were Canadian when traveling. Someone I know personally told me about being laughed at by a bell boy in Mexico ("Bush is your president!") Then, this changed when Obama was elected. I suspect the same thing will happen as soon as the next president takes office, whether it is 2021 or 2025.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Jzone » 25 October 2020, 04:59

Trump does represent an immediate existential threat to both decency and democracy. The long term direction of the nation should be all of our concern, rather than that of any party. Pushing the dems more left under Biden will be a constant struggle, but will be far better than trying to push the nation more rational under a 2nd Trump term. That battle would be lost before the first shot.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Derek » 25 October 2020, 05:14

What is your idea of pressuring the democrats while also unconditionally supporting their ticket? Why would they respond to that pressure? What's your explanation for why - to name just one example - 87% of democrats support M4A, but the party's supposed leader doesn't?
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Jzone » 25 October 2020, 05:25

Voting Biden doesn't mean I unconditionally support the Democratic ticket. Under current circumstances, the party leader is always an asshole — more beholden to big money interests than to the voters. We can hope to change that under either party's leadership, and I would rather make incremental changes to the dem platform than to Trump's. Just to be clear, the current Republican platform is "whatever — we did that four years ago and can't be bothered."
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 25 October 2020, 06:01

Derek wrote:I've hear Biden apologists argue that we can't afford to take the long-term direction of the party into consideration, because Trump represents America's imminent fall into full-blown fascism, and we must defeat him at literally any cost. Do you guys buy that?

I believe for Professor Gnome Chomp Skeet it was the imminent threat of climate change at the present moment.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Derek » 25 October 2020, 06:23

Jzone wrote:Voting Biden doesn't mean I unconditionally support the Democratic ticket. Under current circumstances, the party leader is always an asshole — more beholden to big money interests than to the voters. We can hope to change that under either party's leadership, and I would rather make incremental changes to the dem platform than to Trump's. Just to be clear, the current Republican platform is "whatever — we did that four years ago and can't be bothered."

Again, what is your idea of "pressuring" them? What leverage do you have if there's nothing that will make you withhold your vote?

poolerboy0077 wrote:I believe for Professor Gnome Chomp Skeet it was the imminent threat of climate change at the present moment.

Does he believe Biden's plan approaches anything close to meaningful?
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 25 October 2020, 18:35

Derek wrote:Does he believe Biden's plan approaches anything close to meaningful?

Apparently...

Take Biden's campaign positions. Farther to the left than any Democratic candidate in memory on things like climate. It's far better than anything that preceded it. Not because Biden had a personal conversion or the DNC had some great insight, but because they're being hammered on by activists coming out of the Sanders movement and others. The climate program, a $2 trillion commitment to dealing with the extreme threat of environmental catastrophe, was largely written by the Sunrise Movement and strongly endorsed by the leading activists on climate change, the ones who managed to get the Green New Deal on the legislative agenda. That's real politics.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Derek » 25 October 2020, 19:10

His plan was written by the Sunrise Movement? They scored his stance on climate 75/200 (compared with Sanders' 183/200). I thought Biden's plan was just his version of AOC and Markey's, watered down from $17 trillion to $1.7, aiming for net-zero emissions by 2050 instead of 2030.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby John27 » 25 October 2020, 22:03

poolerboy0077 wrote:
Derek wrote:Does he believe Biden's plan approaches anything close to meaningful?

Apparently...


I don't know Chomsky's opinion, but I think it's safe to say some people feel Biden's plan won't be enough, but it's better than nothing.

One question I wonder: are we theoretically better off with Biden, who might do something, but not enough? Which might buy a bit of time? Or is it better to let things slide another 4 years, on theory that there will be more of a sense of urgency then, and maybe--just maybe--we'll get a candidate who is willing to do something truly meaningful?
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby John27 » 25 October 2020, 22:15

poolerboy0077 wrote:
Take Biden's campaign positions. Farther to the left than any Democratic candidate in memory on things like climate.


Oh, yes...I've see plenty of commentary about "farther to the left." Maybe. But...the question is: what is Biden willing to actually fight for? Call me a cynic, but I don't think he'll be willing to fight for a long list of things he supposedly supports, including, but not limited to, climate issues, $15 minimum wage, etc.

Admittedly, he's not alone. His former boss said a lot that he wasn't apparently interested in actually fighting for. This meme sums it up nicely:

obama presidency meme.jpg


My character reading of Biden is that he's not even interested in "faking left" any more than he absolutely has to.
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