2020 Presidential Election | General

Discuss the news, current events, politics, etc.

If the election were held today and you could vote in it, who would you vote for?

Poll ended at 3 November 2020, 10:58

Donald Trump (Republican)
1
5%
Joe Biden (Democratic)
15
68%
Jo Jorgensen (Libertarian)
1
5%
Howie Hawkins (Green)
2
9%
Brock Pierce (independent)
0
No votes
Kanye West (Birthday Party)
1
5%
other (e.g., write-in)
2
9%
 
Total votes : 22

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Derek » 20 September 2020, 20:52

Bush expanded the security state to previously unimaginable levels and inaugurated a new era of imperialist foreign policy that will shape the 21st century. Reagan destroyed the last vestiges of the New Deal and union influence, officially wedded Republicans to evangelism, and pushed the democrats into the Clinton model of neoliberalism. Trump is despicable, but he still hasn't done anything as bad as his predecessors. His treatment of immigrants, his incitement of racial resentment, his deregulation and tax policy are all bog standard for modern Republicans. Even his defiance of Congress and the courts are just cruder replays of recent scandals. His unique accomplishment is defying the norms of civil politics in a way that exposes how meaningless they always were. He's such a vile person that it all feels heightened in a way it's simply not. Since we're all currently freaking out about RBG, consider for example that Kavanaugh and Gorsuch aren't nearly as bad as Scalia or Thomas.

I would have been proud to vote for Sanders and I like AOC for reasons other than not being an old white guy.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Magic J » 20 September 2020, 21:39

“We may not want to demonize anybody who has made money . . . [If I’m elected president] no one’s standard of living will change, nothing fundamentally would change.” — Joe Biden to big party donors, 2019

Inspiring.

Ignorant Brit here with a question: with regards to the major policy proposed by the Biden campaign ($15 minimum wage, decarbonisation/electrification efforts, public option on healthcare, increase in corporate tax rate, tax enforcement etc), how optimistic are you of these being achieved under a Biden presidency?

To lay my cards on the table, I'm not optimistic, to put it mildly. Another:

“Corporate America has to change its ways. It’s not going to require legislation. I’m not proposing any." - Joe Biden to corporate donors, 2020

Are we to ask the corpotocracy, nicely, if they might be willing to, maybe, give up some of their power? Pretty please?

Sigh. I'm not an American. I don't know what I'd do. Biden, probably...
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Derek » 20 September 2020, 21:52

Magic J wrote:$15 minimum wage

I don't think the next Congress will cooperate, but there's a chance.

decarbonisation/electrification efforts

Token efforts, nothing substantial.

public option on healthcare

Who knows how this will play out. It depends largely on how public support he can generate, and if he just proposes Obamacare 2.0 it could very well go nowhere.

increase in corporate tax rate

If we're extremely lucky we can get it back up to Bush levels.

tax enforcement

This could mean anything, but I think it's important to remember that Biden served the interests of the financial sector (and insurance in particular) more so than any other Democratic senator.

“We may not want to demonize anybody who has made money . . . [If I’m elected president] no one’s standard of living will change, nothing fundamentally would change.” — Joe Biden to big party donors, 2019

One of my favorite Biden quotes:

"And so, the younger generation now tells me how tough things are — give me a break! No no, I have no empathy for it. Give me a break. Because here’s the deal, guys — we decided we were going to change the world, and we did."
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Magic J » 20 September 2020, 22:22

Succinct answers, cheers!
Derek wrote:This could mean anything, but I think it's important to remember that Biden served the interests of the financial sector (and insurance in particular) more so than any other Democratic senator.

So, I'm not a finance guy and I barely understand most of it (which I suspect is somewhat the point :P), but what I mean by this is: will Biden make moves towards tackling corporate tax avoidance? This would be an important issue for me. Tackling financialisation and rent-seeking behaviours are high on the list, and I'd want a government that has the economic nous to address these complex problems. If he's historically served the interest of finance, as you say, then I remain pessimistic.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Derek » 20 September 2020, 22:57

Tax avoidance means different things in different contexts. When Biden mentions it, he's probably talking about shell companies and foreign holdings. That's not really a partisan issue - even Republicans can't publicly act like they're in favor of that sort of practice. Likewise, Democrats and Republicans are equally likely to favor it in private. I don't see us making big improvements any time soon. And I'm starting to bum myself out now reading my own posts.
Last edited by Derek on 20 September 2020, 22:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Brenden » 20 September 2020, 22:58

Biden was known as the ‘Senator from MBNA’. IIRC they bought him his house and gave one of his sons a cushy executive job.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Brenden » 21 September 2020, 23:29

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Nothing says democracy like *shuffles cards* kicking other parties off the ballot!
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Brenden » 22 September 2020, 18:59

Dan Carlin, host of the popular podcasts Hardcore History and Common Sense, has, shockingly, just endorsed Joe Biden and laid out his thoughts in the latest episode of Common Sense.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Derek » 23 September 2020, 04:03

If I'm being honest, my gut hope is that Biden wins. I hate Trump and like most Americans I'm constantly immersed in this sensation that the country has gone up in flames, and I want that feeling to stop. I've talked myself into believing that it's a lose-lose situation and the precise outcome doesn't matter that much in long run - and I believe my arguments are sound - but it's difficult to ignore the emotional response to everything going on. It's probably easier if you live in Scotland.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Magic J » 23 September 2020, 06:56

Derek wrote:It's probably easier if you live in Scotland.

I live in a one party state, so yeah, it's generally easier to decide who to vote for. :P

Edit: This is definitely a joke, cybernats. Please don't hurt me.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Brenden » 23 September 2020, 11:34

Magic J wrote:Edit: This is definitely a joke, cybernats. Please don't hurt me.

*puts club away*
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Brenden » 23 September 2020, 11:37

Derek wrote:It's probably easier if you live in Scotland.

The country with the largest concentration of American nuclear warheads outside the US?

On the plus side, GLONASS satellite reception is almost as good here as in the D.C. area!
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Jzone » 24 September 2020, 02:12

It is a shock to me that anyone can be undecided at this point. What more can they possibly be waiting for?

I agree with Derek that it seems like a lose-lose situation, but that is nothing new in presidential elections. Trump is working overtime to undermine the election itself, while refusing to acknowledge that unfriendly foreign interests are doing the same. There is no excuse for reelecting someone who does that from the White House. Biden has his faults and his record is far from ideal, but Trump isn't defensible as far as I am concerned.

Conservative/liberal, republican/democrat, authoritarian/progressive — all these are other issues. I am talking about the man in the office.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Derek » 24 September 2020, 02:31

Jzone wrote:It is a shock to me that anyone can be undecided at this point. What more can they possibly be waiting for?

Hmm, it's not like anyone has explained those reasons in this very thread, and their arguments have gone unacknowledged...
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Jzone » 24 September 2020, 15:24

I acknowledge that the idealistic dream that not participating in this messed up system will somehow fix it is delusional. Voting is not going to fix it either, but abstaining only adds to the problem by allowing a smaller number of people (or electors) to influence the outcome. Voting for a third party candidate may feel good for a day or two, but we should be honest in that effectively is a vote for Trump.

The policies coming out of the Trump administration may be in line with trends of the past, but the damage it is doing to the US standing in the international community and the morale of the country is astounding. Then there is the complete failure of a response to the pandemic, resulting in avoidable deaths. These are deep effects that will not be easily reversed.

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Brenden » 24 September 2020, 15:50

4.5 million of those third-party votes were for the Libertarian Party. The vast majority of those voters would have voted for Trump if there wasn't a third-party option for them, and Trump's victory would have been even greater and he would have an even stronger mandate.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Derek » 24 September 2020, 17:15

Jzone wrote:I acknowledge that the idealistic dream that not participating in this messed up system will somehow fix it is delusional.


For my own paltry part, I did participate. I donated money to Bernie’s campaign and got into internet arguments on his behalf, as any responsible civic-minded person would. It’s delusional to think that the system begins and ends with the presidential vote, or that not voting for one of two parties isn’t a stance in of itself.

Jzone wrote:Voting is not going to fix it either, but abstaining only adds to the problem by allowing a smaller number of people (or electors) to influence the outcome.


How does signaling your complete willing to compromise give you more leverage and not less?

Allow me to share with you a quote from Chuck Schumer in 2016: “For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia. And you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin.”

That quote explains the party’s electoral philosophy. Besides being disastrously wrong on a pragmatic level, consider what this implies for the long-term direction of the party. Clinton and Schumer were fine winning with a base of “””moderate””” republicans because they have no values. Every four years people lament their poverty of choice, but where’s the attempt to synthesize that with their own history of political participation?

This line that progressives are better of selling out is just bird-brained. It’s not how our system is designed and it doesn’t square with even a cursory look at what has happened in the last 60 years.

Jzone wrote:Voting for a third party candidate may feel good for a day or two, but we should be honest in that effectively is a vote for Trump.


This is the dumbest thing people say that is just literally untrue on a basic level. A vote for a third party is a vote for a thirdy party. Brenden’s example about the Libertarian Party illustrates that well.


Jzone wrote:The policies coming out of the Trump administration may be in line with trends of the past, but the damage it is doing to the US standing in the international community and the morale of the country is astounding.


The damage he has done to our morale and international standing is both incredibly well-deserved and probably for the best.

Jzone wrote:Then there is the complete failure of a response to the pandemic, resulting in avoidable deaths. These are deep effects that will not be easily reversed.


A failure in which every republican in every level of government was complicit. Every time democrats act like Trump, who has the mind of a dyslexic toddler, is solely responsible for everything wrong, they are ceding rhetorical ground to the reactionaries and fascists who support him. What recent example is there to point to of a “responsible” Republican president handling a crisis in a humane way? Is it Bush and Katrina?
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby PopTart » 24 September 2020, 18:01

Would you say then that the problems are the electoral system itself?
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby Derek » 24 September 2020, 18:18

I think the electoral system could be improved to the point where I might actually bother voting, but I don't think that would, like, fix America.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postby PopTart » 24 September 2020, 18:19

Derek wrote:I think the electoral system could be improved to the point where I might actually bother voting, but I don't think that would, like, fix America.

Okay, so what would you say, would be a step in the right direction then?

What would fix America?

Or atleast, what would get your vote. What would speak to you most?
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