2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Discuss the news, current events, politics, etc.

Will you vote for Joe Biden? (Or would you if you could.)

Yes
10
59%
No
6
35%
Maybe
1
6%
 
Total votes : 17

Re: 2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Unread postby PopTart » 12 April 2020, 11:34

Whistles discretely in a corner, such a nice day....
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 13 April 2020, 17:20

Can someone explain to me the libertarian solutions to this pandemic?
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Unread postby Derek » 13 April 2020, 17:24

poolerboy0077 wrote:Can someone explain to me the libertarian solutions to this pandemic?

The weak will die and that's fine. Good, even.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 13 April 2020, 19:38

Derek wrote:
poolerboy0077 wrote:Can someone explain to me the libertarian solutions to this pandemic?

The weak will die and that's fine. Good, even.

My. I’m so impressed with how internally consistent the ideology is! Is it too late to join? Are they taking applications?
Blow: "Nowadays even Liam can release an album of his screechy vocals and it'll probably go #1..."
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Unread postby Derek » 13 April 2020, 23:18

Just say John Galt three times into a mirror and he'll appear and give you your trilby.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Unread postby John27 » 13 April 2020, 23:23

A thing discussing the Supreme Court, which is what they'll use to shove Biden down our throats. (For those outside the US, all these judges, excpet RBG, are conservative. Thomas has really drawn a lot of negative commentary.)
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Unread postby John27 » 13 April 2020, 23:24

This is my favorite "terms and conditions to get me to vote for Biden" thing I've seen.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Unread postby John27 » 13 April 2020, 23:25

Biden's younger voter outreach is truly a success:
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Unread postby Sullivan » 14 April 2020, 03:09

Derek wrote:The way I see it, the status quo has existed for longer than Trump's first term. What did eight years of Obama do to relieve of us imperialism, inequality, or corruption? Fuck all. So what's the point of four years of Biden if President Tom Cotton is waiting for us in 2024?

I think my rebuttal would need to be that just because the spectrum along which business as usual operates is narrow doesn't mean it ought to be collapsed entirely. Sure, a glad-handing, windsocky politician like Biden isn't going to end our imperialism abroad or socioeconomic inequality at home. But there are differences on the margin that I don't think should be discounted—whether it's Trump's disbelief in climate change, escalation of tension with Iran, or his appointment to our federal court system of hundreds of conservative judges.

John27 wrote:A thing discussing the Supreme Court, which is what they'll use to shove Biden down our throats. (For those outside the US, all these judges, excpet RBG, are conservative. Thomas has really drawn a lot of negative commentary.)

How is this at all relevant to the legitimate assumption that Biden will make more tolerable judicial appointments than Trump? But since you're bringing up Biden's shitty Senate record, I think it's worth acknowledging that he at least voted against Robert Bork.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Unread postby Derek » 14 April 2020, 03:27

Sullivan wrote:
Derek wrote:The way I see it, the status quo has existed for longer than Trump's first term. What did eight years of Obama do to relieve of us imperialism, inequality, or corruption? Fuck all. So what's the point of four years of Biden if President Tom Cotton is waiting for us in 2024?

I think my rebuttal would need to be that just because the spectrum along which business as usual operates is narrow doesn't mean it ought to be collapsed entirely. Sure, a glad-handing, windsocky politician like Biden isn't going to end our imperialism abroad or socioeconomic inequality at home. But there are differences on the margin that I don't think should be discounted—whether it's Trump's disbelief in climate change, escalation of tension with Iran, or his appointment to our federal court system of hundreds of conservative judges.

I think the judiciary is the only part that holds water. Biden isn't going to shit about climate change, and there's every chance he'll be more hawkish than Trump. And let's not forget how he's handled judicial appointments in the past, whether it was going to bat for Clarence Thomas by attacking Anita Hill or publicly urging Obama to nominate centrists.

There's an argument to be made that democrats are more inimical to progress than republicans because they have a stewardship over the left wing and for fifty years they've only used it to cede ground. When it comes to labor politics, they've been downright hostile. It's possible that the democratic party as we know it has to die before anything better can take its place.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Unread postby Sullivan » 14 April 2020, 04:42

I guess I'm not willing to concede that there's no difference between a president who acknowledges that climate change is a problem and one who actively removes us from the principal, if woefully inadequate, international agreement meant to combat it while also dismantling federal regulations aimed at environmental protection. If you want to argue that his approach to the Middle East, or foreign policy generally, could somehow be worse than Trump's, fine whatever. Biden certainly isn't a hill I'm gonna die on.

Derek wrote:There's an argument to be made that democrats are more inimical to progress than republicans because they have a stewardship over the left wing and for fifty years they've only used it to cede ground. When it comes to labor politics, they've been downright hostile. It's possible that the democratic party as we know it has to die before anything better can take its place.


I mean, okay, but I'd want to see a more explicit explanation of the upshot. I don't need to be sold on what a horrible steward of leftism the Democratic Party has been, but what's the argument being made about how a better left party succeeds it, about how positive political change actually occurs?
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Unread postby Derek » 14 April 2020, 05:18

I don't think positive political change occurs if democrats elect people like Obama and Biden. The worst part about Obama is how popular he still is despite accomplishing virtually nothing. Which is the whole point, because the actual purpose of the democratic party is to maintain the machinery of capitalism in as quiet and unobtrusive a way as possible.

There was a hope that Hillary's defeat proved a point about the failures of neoliberalism and the impetus for sweeping ideological reform. That hope was apparently in vain, but who knows? A second Trump term might do it. The prospect of Hillary or Trump got Bernie into the mix, which definitely moved the conversation left of where it was. Meanwhile, I don't believe Biden would accomplish anything worth leaving my house for (climate change requires a response orders of magnitude more massive than anything the dems are capable of mustering), so I don't particularly mind the gamble. I think more than anything people just want the peace of mind that Trump isn't in the White House, and I don't think complacency is what we should be aiming for.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Unread postby Sullivan » 15 April 2020, 18:55

I think there is a general cognitive dissonance, definitive of our times, worth recognizing at this point. Yes, I am complacent. But ultimately so is everyone who isn't directly involved in movements of climate activism yet takes seriously (1) the most catastrophic projections of what continued warming could lead to and (2) the fact that the only way to alter a structure dependent on massive imbalances of power and resources—short of a sudden systemic shock—is through collective action. To my mind, you don't dodge complacency by sitting out election day but getting up every morning to drive to an office job.

So you're right. In voting for Biden, I'm admitting that I'd rather have a more orderly descent into a capitalist hellscape than give Republicans free rein to accelerate the process, since I don't think you gain anything in that acceleration.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Unread postby Derek » 15 April 2020, 20:42

You don't think there's any value in - as they say - heightening the contradictions?

I think Trump broke people's brains and that it may have had a positive effect on many. You can draw a straight line from 2016 to the ascendancy of people like Bernie and AOC in the public eye.

So say we had this choice: Trump in 2020 and an actual progressive in 2024, or Biden in 2020 and Tom Cotton in 2024. Which do you pick?

To my mind, you don't dodge complacency by sitting out election day but getting up every morning to drive to an office job.

I don't think that's a fair criticism. I'm a guy in his 20s with no family money who has to pay rent. My involvement in shaping the political agenda in this country begins and ends at the voting booth. By design the most I can do is send the smallest of messages with my abstention. When all things are considered, I prefer that message to the one sent by participating.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 16 April 2020, 16:09

One thing you can do is live vicariously though Mexico. They have an anti-establishment president right now who rails against neoliberalism so much he’s outright refusing to provide counter cyclical measures to help during these times, opting instead to give money to the poor directly and not a dime to corporations. Will they likely plunge into a horrible recession as most economists predict or will his social experiments come out victorious? Observing them is like watching a reality show.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Unread postby theone » 20 April 2020, 15:44

I totally wanted Mayor Pete to get the nomination. Not because he is gay...but because of his temperament and agenda. I think I would have voted for him, even if he was married to a woman.

I've always said that I would vote for anyone and their dog over Trump. I stand by that statement. Biden 2020!!
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Unread postby John27 » 24 April 2020, 08:00

Somehow, I ended up on an e-mail list for the Biden campaign that is intended to raise money from the peasants. I didn't sign up--I think they bought a list that included my e-mail address.

On Earth Day, I got an e-mail suggesting that I donate $5 to help him share his vision of fighting climate change.

Thought #1: if Biden needs money, he can go to his billionaire friends, for whom things "won't fundamentally change" if Biden is elected.

Thought #2: I haven't paid attention to his plan, but I wonder if it won't end up being another one of those plans that sounds vaguely promising to get votes. But the reality would end up being a plan that does some good things, but won't go far enough--because aggressive action is against the interests of big money donors, and we can't have that, can we?

Thought #3: thinking of thought #2, I think I've really become a bitter, burned out cynic...a natural reaction, I guess, after having lived through so many election cycles that bring nothing but tears and disappointment in the end.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Unread postby Brenden » 24 April 2020, 09:40

theone wrote:I totally wanted Mayor Pete to get the nomination. Not because he is gay...but because of his temperament and agenda. I think I would have voted for him, even if he was married to a woman.

You mean his agenda that completely changed as he began getting more and more money from billionaires and corporate interests?
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Unread postby Sullivan » 27 April 2020, 05:17

Derek wrote:You don't think there's any value in - as they say - heightening the contradictions?

I think they're quite high enough already.

So say we had this choice: Trump in 2020 and an actual progressive in 2024, or Biden in 2020 and Tom Cotton in 2024. Which do you pick?

I guess the first. But I'm just generally the kind of person who tackles life's box of chocolates orange cremes first and salted caramels last, y'know?

Sullivan wrote:To my mind, you don't dodge complacency by sitting out election day but getting up every morning to drive to an office job.

I don't think that's a fair criticism. I'm a guy in his 20s with no family money who has to pay rent. My involvement in shaping the political agenda in this country begins and ends at the voting booth. By design the most I can do is send the smallest of messages with my abstention. When all things are considered, I prefer that message to the one sent by participating.

But, see, to me this is the entire issue. As you yourself have been arguing, elections only matter rather minimally, and yet so long as there is passive acceptance that they constitute the entirety of our political lives our future is bleak. I'm not suggesting that the kind of more active politics I'm advocating is particularly easy or likely to be realized—nor was my office job line directed at you, personally—but I think it's helpful to have in mind what an ideal solution would be and to understand that alienation and disaffection don't achieve anything good long-term.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election | Primaries | nEw PolL

Unread postby Derek » 27 April 2020, 05:44

Sullivan wrote:but I think it's helpful to have in mind what an ideal solution would be and to understand that alienation and disaffection don't achieve anything good long-term.

Tell that to the guys who cut off Louis XVII's head.
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