accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

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accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

Unread postby Gay-paul » 23 December 2018, 11:30

What would happen if someone shot an undercover cop if they, for example, breaking into someone house without caus? I know that American had the right to bear arms? But that not in case of EU and certainly not cause of Poland :(

In my country of Poland, it is very difficult to get a gun permit, one man once shot a thief with a gun for which he had permission, and he was convicted. It's a fucking scandal so that the fucking thief has more rights than the owner!
In addition, the police in my country are abusing secret search warrants that allow them to secretly enter someone's property and search. I once read that our Polish police, secretly searched the apartment of a guy who was suspected of producing methamphetamine, a glorious goal, unfortunately, those morons broke into the wrong house because they had bad intel data and did not check that someone was in the apartment :)

And the idiots could simply ask the prosecutor and the judge for a normal regular search warrant :D

When I watch American films, I like the fact that the owner can shoot a burglar like a dog! :madred:
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Re: accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

Unread postby GearFetTwinkRomance » 23 December 2018, 15:43

Well, I guess you can do that anywhere, as long as no one will ever know. Some odd people eat the burglar or feed them to their pet boar. Depends on the caution taken, of course. No screaming and that. Some may lock the burglar in the cellar space, gag him, hog-tie him and use him for a sex slave and things.

Not certain if all of the US is like Texas. My uncle and auntie in Michigan said, they didn't want to shoot some random property invader and have them rot in the backyard, because it may attract bears.

I'd guess if you shot an undercover cop camouflaged as a burglar, there was something wrong with the cop in the first place, or he was a genuine burglar, camouflaged as a cop.

Cops doing a B&E without a search warrant likely works only in the movies.
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Re: accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

Unread postby Tommiebee » 23 December 2018, 16:03

The right to "bear arms" is not very universal across the U.S. Most large cities prohibit possession of a firearm without an elaborate and difficult permit system. However in the more rural areas firearms become a necessity. If the county sheriff dropped everything and drove like mad to get to my home, it would still be at least half an hour before he arrived. If the patrol car is on the other end of the county, then double that.
So I have at least half an hour in which I have to provide my own solutions to a problem, whether it be a person or persons, a bear, wolves, mountain lion, etc.
However, the circumstances you describe, shooting a law enforcement officer, under any circumstances will likely get you sent to prison.
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Re: accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

Unread postby mxguy01 » 23 December 2018, 17:47

Gay-paul wrote:What would happen if someone shot an undercover cop if they, for example, breaking into someone house without caus? I know that American had the right to bear arms? But that not in case of EU and certainly not cause of Poland :(

In my country of Poland, it is very difficult to get a gun permit, one man once shot a thief with a gun for which he had permission, and he was convicted. It's a fucking scandal so that the fucking thief has more rights than the owner!
In addition, the police in my country are abusing secret search warrants that allow them to secretly enter someone's property and search. I once read that our Polish police, secretly searched the apartment of a guy who was suspected of producing methamphetamine, a glorious goal, unfortunately, those morons broke into the wrong house because they had bad intel data and did not check that someone was in the apartment :)

And the idiots could simply ask the prosecutor and the judge for a normal regular search warrant :D

When I watch American films, I like the fact that the owner can shoot a burglar like a dog! :madred:


So what you're saying is you have a desire to shoot and kill another person?
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Re: accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

Unread postby mxguy01 » 23 December 2018, 17:59

Tommiebee wrote:The right to "bear arms" is not very universal across the U.S. Most large cities prohibit possession of a firearm without an elaborate and difficult permit system. However in the more rural areas firearms become a necessity. If the county sheriff dropped everything and drove like mad to get to my home, it would still be at least half an hour before he arrived. If the patrol car is on the other end of the county, then double that.
So I have at least half an hour in which I have to provide my own solutions to a problem, whether it be a person or persons, a bear, wolves, mountain lion, etc.
However, the circumstances you describe, shooting a law enforcement officer, under any circumstances will likely get you sent to prison.


Your reasoning doesn't quite stand up. In the instant of facing a mountain lion, bear, wolf, degenerate human, etc in the instant. it won't matter if the authorities are minutes, hours or days away.

I use to hunt (target shoot only really as I never really was into killing animals) as a youth so I owned guns. When I no longer did that I no longer had a reason for guns so I intentionally got rid of them due to what I viewed as a big liability.

I would also say that not one time in my life during an unfortunate encounter have I ever thought it would have been a good idea to have a gun in my possession.

It is but a fact that people carrying guns as a normal course are the ones causing gun violence. The statistics of our country vs others that do not permit it show that pretty blatantly. That is not to mean that I don't support the 2nd amendment.
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Re: accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

Unread postby Derek » 23 December 2018, 19:47

Oh honey, we've all been in that situation. Remember it's important to ask "Am I under arrest?" while speaking with the cops, and as always drink plenty of water.
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Re: accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

Unread postby Eryx » 23 December 2018, 20:31

Gay-paul wrote:In my country of Poland
In my head this sounds so Polish :lol:
I can't not think about it!
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Re: accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

Unread postby Tommiebee » 23 December 2018, 20:34

mxguy01 wrote:
Tommiebee wrote:The right to "bear arms" is not very universal across the U.S. Most large cities prohibit possession of a firearm without an elaborate and difficult permit system. However in the more rural areas firearms become a necessity. If the county sheriff dropped everything and drove like mad to get to my home, it would still be at least half an hour before he arrived. If the patrol car is on the other end of the county, then double that.
So I have at least half an hour in which I have to provide my own solutions to a problem, whether it be a person or persons, a bear, wolves, mountain lion, etc.
However, the circumstances you describe, shooting a law enforcement officer, under any circumstances will likely get you sent to prison.


Your reasoning doesn't quite stand up. In the instant of facing a mountain lion, bear, wolf, degenerate human, etc in the instant. it won't matter if the authorities are minutes, hours or days away.

I use to hunt (target shoot only really as I never really was into killing animals) as a youth so I owned guns. When I no longer did that I no longer had a reason for guns so I intentionally got rid of them due to what I viewed as a big liability.

I would also say that not one time in my life during an unfortunate encounter have I ever thought it would have been a good idea to have a gun in my possession.

It is but a fact that people carrying guns as a normal course are the ones causing gun violence. The statistics of our country vs others that do not permit it show that pretty blatantly. That is not to mean that I don't support the 2nd amendment.

Not certain how you arrive at a conclusion that my reasoning doesn't stand up. With "help" at least a half hour away, it falls to me to prevent harm or injury to myself and others on my property. A firearm is one of many tools in that toolbox.
Most gun owners are responsible and reasonable. However, many people who carry guns are not - many of those people include criminals, convicted felons, gang members and the occasional deranged person. Everyone who falls into those categories is already a prohibited person who has chosen to ignore the law already.
It is no more right to castigate gun owners over criminal use of guns than castigated walkers because some people jaywalk.
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Re: accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

Unread postby BlackBoi666 » 23 December 2018, 22:15

Gay-paul wrote:What would happen if someone shot an undercover cop if they, for example, breaking into someone house without caus? I know that American had the right to bear arms? But that not in case of EU and certainly not cause of Poland :(

In my country of Poland, it is very difficult to get a gun permit, one man once shot a thief with a gun for which he had permission, and he was convicted. It's a fucking scandal so that the fucking thief has more rights than the owner!
In addition, the police in my country are abusing secret search warrants that allow them to secretly enter someone's property and search. I once read that our Polish police, secretly searched the apartment of a guy who was suspected of producing methamphetamine, a glorious goal, unfortunately, those morons broke into the wrong house because they had bad intel data and did not check that someone was in the apartment :)

And the idiots could simply ask the prosecutor and the judge for a normal regular search warrant :D

When I watch American films, I like the fact that the owner can shoot a burglar like a dog! :madred:

punch them. Lmao :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

Unread postby mxguy01 » 23 December 2018, 22:54

Tommiebee wrote:
mxguy01 wrote:
Tommiebee wrote:The right to "bear arms" is not very universal across the U.S. Most large cities prohibit possession of a firearm without an elaborate and difficult permit system. However in the more rural areas firearms become a necessity. If the county sheriff dropped everything and drove like mad to get to my home, it would still be at least half an hour before he arrived. If the patrol car is on the other end of the county, then double that.
So I have at least half an hour in which I have to provide my own solutions to a problem, whether it be a person or persons, a bear, wolves, mountain lion, etc.
However, the circumstances you describe, shooting a law enforcement officer, under any circumstances will likely get you sent to prison.


Your reasoning doesn't quite stand up. In the instant of facing a mountain lion, bear, wolf, degenerate human, etc in the instant. it won't matter if the authorities are minutes, hours or days away.

I use to hunt (target shoot only really as I never really was into killing animals) as a youth so I owned guns. When I no longer did that I no longer had a reason for guns so I intentionally got rid of them due to what I viewed as a big liability.

I would also say that not one time in my life during an unfortunate encounter have I ever thought it would have been a good idea to have a gun in my possession.

It is but a fact that people carrying guns as a normal course are the ones causing gun violence. The statistics of our country vs others that do not permit it show that pretty blatantly. That is not to mean that I don't support the 2nd amendment.

Not certain how you arrive at a conclusion that my reasoning doesn't stand up. With "help" at least a half hour away, it falls to me to prevent harm or injury to myself and others on my property. A firearm is one of many tools in that toolbox.
Most gun owners are responsible and reasonable. However, many people who carry guns are not - many of those people include criminals, convicted felons, gang members and the occasional deranged person. Everyone who falls into those categories is already a prohibited person who has chosen to ignore the law already.
It is no more right to castigate gun owners over criminal use of guns than castigated walkers because some people jaywalk.


I backpack. While do it so help is many hours away. Quite frankly I'm more worried about medical response than the need to defend myself with a gun. At what point do you draw that line for a need of a gun? A crossbow would not due?
Last edited by mxguy01 on 23 December 2018, 22:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

Unread postby mxguy01 » 23 December 2018, 22:57

Oh, not to mention a well lit perimeter of your property is likely a better investment in your security.
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Re: accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

Unread postby Capt._Trips » 24 December 2018, 00:03

Kinda off topic but I swear I remember seeing an infomercial about a rack that slid in between your mattress and boxspring. Just so you could have your shot gun ready to go when you need it. :lol:



Only in Merica :lol:

On a more serious note. The laws vary from state to state on how much force can be used in a dangerous situation. And usually each case is looked at case by case.

I'll second Tommiebee and say that alot of the guns doing killings and harm are owned by people who by law shouldn't have them. Not all but most.

And i will add that most of the legal responsible gun owners never have to use them in a life or death situation.

A crossbow would not due?


Crossbows can be deadly to though.
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Re: accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

Unread postby Jan101 » 24 December 2018, 01:34

My guess is that the law in Poland is likely somewhat similar to England & Wales when it comes down to an illegal entry into a person's property. In the U.K., you cannot use a gun to protect your home from a thief, which I do agree with entirely, UNLESS they have a gun and can be deemed a threat to use it. The law in England & Wales requires that the defendant uses force which is reasonable in the circumstances when protecting a property (s76(6) Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008), therefore if force used is disproportionate them it is automatically unreasonable. However, there is what is known as the householder exception, which changes the situation slightly. In a householder case, the defendant would only be guilty if he was to use a "grossly disproportionate" amount of force (e.g. shooting a gun when it is clear that the victim had no weapon on him, for instance) as of s76(5)(A) of the same act. A famous case, although before the implimentation of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008, was R v Martin (Anthony Edward) [2001] where the defendant's reaction was deemed unreasonable, and it was stated that the use of a dangerous weapon would suffice "grossly disproportionate" regardless of the circumstances, but it is unclear whether this would remain to be the same today.

In regards to within the United States, and involving Constitutional Law, the Second Amendment "Right to Bear Arms" likely fails to produce anything legitimate in the circumstances that have been presented. Further, it is important to remember that the right is not seen as unlimited (see Scalia J in District of Columbia v Heller [2008], "Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited", also Stevens J "... but a conclusion that the Second Amendment protects an individual right does not tell us anything about the scope of that right). In fact, following Breyer J in that case, it is likely the Second Amendment would not apply in the circumstances ("... that the Second Amendment protects militia-related, not self-defence related, interests..."). That probably is not the best example of the law in practice, as the case is particularly confusing constitutionally. Instead, an application of United States v Miller [1939] would probably be better as it was deemed that the possession of a shotgun was not a Consitutional right, as this had nothing to do with either a militia or the right to bear arms. Whether, again, that would stand today, I don't know. But that is the law as it currently is, so my guess is that of a person was to kill an undercover police officer in those circumstances, they would probably be guilty of a homicide offence in some way.
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Re: accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

Unread postby mxguy01 » 24 December 2018, 03:37

At the same time, a gun used to simply defend oneself, by shooting to deter rather than kill... That is where the line gets blurry so to speak Wrt the law in the US.
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Re: accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

Unread postby mxguy01 » 24 December 2018, 03:41

I'm the son of a police man and son in law of a policeman. Both would say put a knife in his hand and say you thought you were being attacked.
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Re: accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

Unread postby GearFetTwinkRomance » 24 December 2018, 07:55

Gun use works in Canada pretty well, as most people use them as tools, and don't think much more about them than being a tool. For going hunting or safety while out in the bear country. Most folks aren't that fit as to protect themselves with a crossbow if they had to.
The Yukoner guy who's wife and kid were killed by a bear had to gun shoot the damn thing, when it would charge him as well. Yet such cases are rare even in the bear range, and having a gun commonly doesn't secure in any case. People have been attacked in their sleep / tent before. It's one of the risks, if you go wandering grandfather bear's country.

People in Russia have guns, people in Iran have guns, people in many countries of the world use guns, and everyone's just bitching to the US and gun laws.
They've arrested some folks in Germany last night who had a Kalashnikov ( Ak 47) at home - alleged to be IS terror related ,possibly to the latest French incident. So if people want to get guns, they will get them, in EU too. The gun laws can be as restrictive as possible, the crooks get around. People that own guns over here, don't tell anyone. Officially, the most are hunters by job or shooting sports enthusiasts. It's very difficult to legally get a gun permit for private safety reasons and this is always connected to certain psychological tests and training, education, responsibility checks. So any random lunatic can't get anything the legal way.

In self defence purposes, a gun can be helpful. Yet, if you use your mind, you don't need one and the whole legality/illegality stress. People invent things way more dangerous, if they are not allowed to use guns for self defence. Or use divergent methods, set booby traps, like this lone living old fart with his bear traps, and the guy that wanted to steal from him was literally hobbled. :|
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Re: accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

Unread postby Tommiebee » 24 December 2018, 14:57

Late returning to the party, sorry.
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Just a couple of thoughts. I also used to backpack. Have been stalked by mountain lions. Not fun.
And not really something any kind of weapon is useful for... you get sprung on from behind and above, but there is some safety in numbers.
For my own circumstances we often have rabid animals in the area - there is no frightening them away as they no longer have the sense to be afraid. Being attacked by a wild animal that doesn't turn and run at the sound of a gunshot will really get your heart pumping!
Black bears are also prevalent in my area, and while normally shy around humans, when one chooses to confront you, it has decided you're good to eat and must be dealt with.
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Re: accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

Unread postby Tommiebee » 24 December 2018, 15:36

BTW for the purposes of "civilians" involved in self defense, even pointing a firearm at someone equals assault with a deadly weapon, there is no shoot to wound, if you shoot you shoot to make the attacker stop.
As someone who was trained by the Army in shooting, I have thousands and thousands of rounds fired in pistol and rifle, consistently shoot above 95% with a pistol at self defense ranges but would never shoot trying just "wound" an attacker - the odds of doing that causing a miss are too great and "wounding" as depicted in movies (in the leg for instance) are often fatal due to hitting the femoral artery.
Shooting under stress is a whole different ballgame - an acquaintance in drug enforcement got into a gunfight with a drug dealer across the hood of a car: both emptied their weapons, neither hit the other. With the adrenaline pumping, it's hard to control your aim! When bullets start zipping past you, it will really change your outlook.
I wish more LGBT people did carry firearms - if two people in the crowd at Orlando had been armed, the shooter would very likely have fled instead of shooting so many innocent people. But that wish is for responsible, trained carry, not cowboy or movie drama. An armed group is a deterrent to maniacs who choose to shoot up a venue full of innocents.
Want to add that I appreciate everyone's intelligent responses since this topic is often an emotional hotbutton.
And yes, a crossbow is an excellent weapon, but with slower second shot capabilites.
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Re: accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

Unread postby mxguy01 » 24 December 2018, 15:58

The more people running around with guns equates to more violence. You have seen the statistics of major gun violence by country and seen that the US is at the top of the charts while Nations that don't permit "concealed weapons" are way lower that the US..

Oh and your prior comment about a permit being difficult to get, you're referring to a "concealed weapon" permit? Yes, I hope they are really hard to obtain. It's called reasonable gun controls.
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Re: accidentally killing undercover cop while secret search?

Unread postby Tommiebee » 24 December 2018, 16:46

mxguy01 wrote:The more people running around with guns equates to more violence. You have seen the statistics of major gun violence by country and seen that the US is at the top of the charts while Nations that don't permit "concealed weapons" are way lower that the US..

Oh and your prior comment about a permit being difficult to get, you're referring to a "concealed weapon" permit? Yes, I hope they are really hard to obtain. It's called reasonable gun controls.

I think you're conflating two different things here.
Chicago and Washington DC both have rigorous gun control and restrictive permitting while managing an awful lot of murders by firearm every year.
While places with more gun ownership have a lot less firearm deaths.
However, I suspect we are going to have to agree to disagree.
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