Family Arguments Over Christmas

René wrote:I feel lucky having a normal Dutch family. Like the vast majority of people in the Netherlands, in US terms, I suppose they would basically range from democratic socialist to average Democrat.

The republicans are basically ult right and democrats centrist right to people in other developed countries.

René wrote:I feel lucky having a normal Dutch family. Like the vast majority of people in the Netherlands, in US terms, I suppose they would basically range from democratic socialist to average Democrat.

There's a strain of right-wing reactionary in the Netherlands, isn't there? Geert Wilders and shit?

Derek wrote:

René wrote:I feel lucky having a normal Dutch family. Like the vast majority of people in the Netherlands, in US terms, I suppose they would basically range from democratic socialist to average Democrat.

There's a strain of right-wing reactionary in the Netherlands, isn't there? Geert Wilders and shit?

Yeah, I think they got like 13% of the vote in the last election and no one will form a government with them. Hence "vast majority"

Derek wrote:

Brenden wrote:My mom and stepdad kept saying stuff about BLM under the assumption that the phrase "Black Lives Matter" has an implicit only in front of it.

Do you think your parents respect you? This is something I've been struggling with. Since my mom became a Trump conservative, I lost all my trust in her. Her opinions on politics or morality or philosophy are worth as much to me as a toddler's. I don't think she feels the same way about me, though. She can simultaneously believe that leftists are insane and stupid, know that I'm a leftist, and not believe I'm insane and stupid. I just can't make the same leap. Not that I think she's stupid, exactly - she's a gifted programmer with deep professional knowledge. Yet, for example, she believes a report about election fraud that was so stupid and bad that it should genuinely insult the people it was made for. I don't know how to reconcile that.

My dad probably respects me. He certainly values my and René's help with computers and technology, and likes discussing science-y stuff with us (though, his mind has been addled by, e.g., Ancient Aliens on the History Channel, ugh). My mom probably doesn't give enough consideration of her respect or disrespect of me. My stepdad almost certainly thinks I'm intelligent but naïve.

Derek wrote:Not that I think she's stupid, exactly - she's a gifted programmer with deep professional knowledge.

Hyper-specialisation is making smart people stupid in all but their specific field.

René wrote:I feel lucky having a normal Dutch family. Like the vast majority of people in the Netherlands, in US terms, I suppose they would basically range from democratic socialist to average Democrat.

I pictured you saying this as your family prances in the background in blackface.

Brenden wrote:(though, his mind has been addled by, e.g., Ancient Aliens on the History Channel, ugh)

<hides alien, Mayan family heirloom> Yeah, that’s...uh...preposterous.

This is why I haven't celebrated the holidays with my family in years.

My family doesn't fight openly. They are far too repressed to express their thoughts or feelings about anything. Instead they bottle it up and blow up over stupid things.

I get holiday cards filled with pre-printed and hand written Bible versus. It is their passive-aggressive way of saying I am wrong. I am not out to my family. I don't smoke, drink or do drugs. I have the most boring and uninteresting life you can imagine. And yet somehow I still need saving.

I think I've started experimenting on my mother. Trump signed the covid relief bill, and on Christmas she was boasting about how he was doing a pocket veto to force Congress back in session. So when he signed it today, I texted her asking why she thought he caved. Our conversation:




She prides herself on getting the news directly, e.g. reading the president's statements herself, but after four years she still has no concept that he just makes shit up? I don't think there's anything I could say or point out that could get her to admit that he was wrong about something, or even that he made a strategic mistake.

I guess “cuck” was a projection all along.

Wow, I didn’t realise how lucky I was. I mean, my Mom occasionally gets pulled into my sister’s fake news conspiracy theories and my Dad will occasionally go a bit xenophobic, but only within the context of foreigners coming into the country to work for Uber. My sister believes literally anything that Instagram presents her despite being 30, my brother thankfully doesn’t really engage with current affairs. None of us care to debate politics or try to change each other’s minds. We just take the point the other person made that we disagree with, frame it in a slightly exaggerated hypothetical and try to find the joke before moving on. I don’t recall a single occasion where any of us have argued over politics or current affairs. We’re a pretty chilled bunch.

Derek, your mom thinks Mitch is a RINO‽ LOL!

Brenden wrote:Derek, your mom thinks Mitch is a RINO‽ LOL!

She thinks any republican who disagrees with Trump over any issue is a RINO. She voted for McCain in 2008 but hated his guts by the time he died.

What can we ascribe to this phenomenon of otherwise intelligent people believing stupid things? Epistemological ignorance? Erratic emotionality? Cuckoldry?

Not to besmirch all of your mothers, but would Ockham’s razor not force us to determine that you’ve simply misattributed intelligence?

For instance, my mother genuinely believes that chocolate is best kept in the fridge. I’m not going to argue with her about it. I’m just going to dismiss the achievements of her life as a series of flukes and dismiss her has being obviously mentally bereft.

poolerboy0077 wrote:What can we ascribe to this phenomenon of otherwise intelligent people believing stupid things? Epistemological ignorance? Erratic emotionality? Cuckoldry?

Above I already mentioned hyper-specialisation. More and more people are getting highly specific tertiary education, and even secondary education is becoming more specific.

We used to have arguments in my family. But it was mostly my dad being drunk and saying shit out of no where like, "we gave you $5,000" when you were 18--you should pay that back". I don't disagree but I mean, they gave my sister $5k and she never had to pay it back. Those are hypothetical numbers btw.

At this point, he's so gone from drinking and maybe genetics too as well as a heart condition that most of our holiday was just trying to get him to be involved, do normal things like drink water instead of alcohol, stuff like that. His new thing is sleeping 18 hours a day. We've tried so hard to get him into a detox and rehab so we could then rule out other medical issues, to no avail. After the pandemic there won't be an excuse though.

Marmaduke wrote:For instance, my mother genuinely believes that chocolate is best kept in the fridge. I’m not going to argue with her about it. I’m just going to dismiss the achievements of her life as a series of flukes and dismiss her has being obviously mentally bereft.

In your mother's defence, some chocolates are actually very nice cold IMO, and chocolate will eventually degrade outwith the fridge, becoming discoloured and losing its flavour.

acpro wrote:We used to have arguments in my family. But it was mostly my dad being drunk and saying shit out of no where like, "we gave you $5,000" when you were 18--you should pay that back". I don't disagree but I mean, they gave my sister $5k and she never had to pay it back. Those are hypothetical numbers btw.

At this point, he's so gone from drinking and maybe genetics too as well as a heart condition that most of our holiday was just trying to get him to be involved, do normal things like drink water instead of alcohol, stuff like that. His new thing is sleeping 18 hours a day. We've tried so hard to get him into a detox and rehab so we could then rule out other medical issues, to no avail. After the pandemic there won't be an excuse though.

Oh wow. Sorry to hear that!

Brenden wrote:Above I already mentioned hyper-specialisation. More and more people are getting highly specific tertiary education, and even secondary education is becoming more specific.

Marmaduke wrote:Not to besmirch all of your mothers, but would Ockham’s razor not force us to determine that you’ve simply misattributed intelligence?

I’m not a barber so I’m not familiar with this particular razor you speak of. I am but a professional equestrian who competes in dressage and would appreciate if you’d explain this concept you speak of in terms of horse breeds and training scales in their original German terms.

Derek, tell your mom Trump is a RINO. I'm sure she knows he was a democrat for a decent portion of his life--especially as an influencer. And, I haven't been following the news to too much, but I feel like now that he's pretty much done, he has no reason to side with republicans on inhumane legislation, like meager $600 stimulus checks. If he was a true republican he should be fighting for that number to be lower, not higher. But, it's a sign he's slowly realizing he won't be in the WH much longer.

Trump has a super simplistic view on the world, totally black and white. Like, America shouldn't help countries that can afford to help themselves...but completely missing the bigger foreign policy objectives. Of course it makes sense that we shouldn't be just blowing money away but he always misses the larger point, that doing so aids America's larger interests. So when he speaks to a common person who doesn't read the news, it sounds really appealing that we shouldn't be giving money to countries that can afford it, but he never digs deeper and neither do they.