Masculism

Discuss the news, current events, politics, etc.

Are you a masculinist?

certainly yes
1
13%
rather yes
3
38%
rather no
3
38%
certainly no
1
13%
 
Total votes : 8

Masculism

Unread postby harel » 19 May 2020, 19:32

Most gay men, who I know personally, support feminism and so-called liberal agenda. However, app. 1/4 - 1/3 of my gay friends strongly support masculism. Also, recently, I read a summary of a research project, which is related to a new trend of homoconservatism (in the Netherlands). Perhaps, this trend can be generalised to other countries.

On the one hand, there is a gender gap in wages.
More women are victims of physical violence.
On the other hand, men get longer sentences for the same crimes: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... 06.00383.x
Men have a higher retirement age for the same jobs in most countries of the world.
Less money is spent on prostate and testicular cancer research and treatment than breast and cervical cancer research and treatment, also if calculated per patient or death.
Mothers are more likely to get custody of the children after a divorce.
In the European Union funds projects, according to the partnership agreements, there are usually 60%-70% quotas for women: https://ec.europa.eu/info/funding-tende ... t-funds_en

Do you support masculism? I know that the above list is not exhaustive. I could give more examples of discrimination against men than against women, because I support masculism rather than feminism. For me, there needs to be a balance. Feminism is a mainstream issue, masculism - not.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Eryx » 19 May 2020, 23:02

I follow some things and I question some stuff, but that's about it. I've never heard the term "Masculism" for it though. I suppose it is a little similar to what you'd find at /r/MensLib.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Brenden » 20 May 2020, 05:05

I support egalitarianism.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 20 May 2020, 05:13

harel wrote:Mothers are more likely to get custody of the children after a divorce.

Why do you think that is?
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Brenden » 20 May 2020, 05:17

poolerboy0077 wrote:
harel wrote:Mothers are more likely to get custody of the children after a divorce.

Why do you think that is?

Because the court system is biased in favour of mothers. My dad and stepmom had a more stable home and, in the case of my stepmom, proven track record of raising well-adjusted children, yet the family court still gave and kept giving my mom primary custody.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Derek » 20 May 2020, 05:33

I support feminization. Boys should be fed a steady diet of soy from a young age to tame their aggressive impulses. At the age of 14 they must undergo bimbofication surgery to remove their penises and give them big bulbous breasts. Only when every man is a swaggering bimbo will we have achieved parity between the sexes.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Derek » 20 May 2020, 05:45

To answer the question though, I support "masculism" the same way I support feminism, which is to say that I believe there are gains to be made with both sexes, but at the same time I'm not eager to jump into a conversation loaded with unclear intentions and ambiguous ideologies. Lots of people describe themselves as "anti-feminists" because they have tunnel vision and their entire conception of feminism comes from youtube cringe compilations. Likewise, most "men's rights activists" I've encountered are people who are nakedly misogynistic and will backpedal to uncontroversial enlightenment bromides only when pressed. Those communities tend to be based on outrage porn and fixated on issues that, by and large, aren't systemic, don't affect most men, and aren't deserving of a sociological analysis.

So no, I don't consider myself a "masculinist", or at least I wouldn't describe myself that way when asked.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 20 May 2020, 06:24

Brenden wrote:
poolerboy0077 wrote:
harel wrote:Mothers are more likely to get custody of the children after a divorce.

Why do you think that is?

Because the court system is biased in favour of mothers. My dad and stepmom had a more stable home and, in the case of my stepmom, proven track record of raising well-adjusted children, yet the family court still gave and kept giving my mom primary custody.

I can’t speak to your personal story but there are a lot of reasons that can reasonably explain the statistical disparity without jumping on the bias narrative. For one, we have to take into consideration that a sizable portion of custody cases are resolved by way of settlement — one that is enforceable by the courts. There’s also the fact that while most households nowadays comprise of two incomes, fathers on average spend considerably less time with the kids than mothers. If a court observes this behavior in a given case, it’s only rational to be inclined to see mother as the more suitable option when it comes to child care, ceteris paribus.

There are many other reasons to explain this disparity but even assuming for the sake of argument that there is some sort of negative bias against fathers, how are we to unpack this exactly? That the state courts, which comprise overwhelmingly of male judges, are systematically biased against their own sex? Okay, let’s assume that too. Is this because of feminism’s omnipotent and misandrist grip on the national conscious or would it be more likely that people (judges and non-judges alike) have an old fashioned view that women are better caretakers? Which makes the least number of assumptions? Which appears to align most closely with our facts and intuitions about reality? Which field of inquiry has explained this phenomenon throughout the years?

Derek wrote:I support feminization. Boys should be fed a steady diet of soy from a young age to tame their aggressive impulses. At the age of 14 they must undergo bimbofication surgery to remove their penises and give them big bulbous breasts. Only when every man is a swaggering bimbo will we have achieved parity between the sexes.

Not to change the topic but I’ve come to the realization that while you claim to be the wokest out of all of us, you still have one limitation. You label yourself — like the rest of us — as gay. Simon has the upper hand here. Your sexual orientation communicates the idea that only persons with certain genitals and general appearance matters, and it’s problematic. Of course, this presents us with quite the paradox as labeling your sexual orientation as problematic is in itself problematic, as it contributes to shaming and erasure. The only way out of this is to plan a mutual suicide. You go first, though; I’m right behind you.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Derek » 20 May 2020, 16:27

Brenden also has the upper hand because he's bisexual. You probably shouldn't be arguing with him.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby harel » 20 May 2020, 16:32

poolerboy0077 wrote:
harel wrote:Mothers are more likely to get custody of the children after a divorce.

Why do you think that is?
Look, I was not discussing the reasons for the gender differences mentioned in my first post. Why are you asking about the reasons for child custody gender gap only? For example, the gender gap in pay persists due to the fact that men are more likely than women to work 50 hours-plus a week, found a recent study published by the American Sociological Review. The extra hours — known as “overwork” — , on average, in an extra 6% in hourly wages across all occupations: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10 ... 2414528936

Men are likely to get longer sentences for the same crimes: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... 06.00383.x So, I suppose that family courts are also likely to disadvantage men compared to women.

Brenden wrote:I support egalitarianism.
Actually, feminist agenda does not include any of the issues listed below. I wonder, whether an egalitarian should support both masculism and feminism.
harel wrote:Men get longer sentences for the same crimes: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... 06.00383.x
Men have a higher retirement age for the same jobs in most countries of the world.
Less money is spent on prostate and testicular cancer research and treatment than breast and cervical cancer research and treatment, also if calculated per patient or death.
Mothers are more likely to get custody of the children after a divorce.
In the European Union funds projects, according to the partnership agreements, there are usually 60%-70% quotas for women: https://ec.europa.eu/info/funding-tende ... t-funds_en
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby GearFetTwinkRomance » 20 May 2020, 17:24

I think I support humans as well as maple trees, Avocados and bottles, boats and board-sport boards.

I think my masculism is directed toward a very limited use, if it comes to cute Twink men I want them to be masculine rather than something different,.
Not that I would not like dogs or bats. ( At time I like Avocados, a lot, as they seem to show an influence on cravings or something ) I guess they call that eclecticism

I do support women's rights on the greater scope, as long as it doesn't become like a religion of sorts.
Like when they changed over a certain language use, so even in government and mainstream media everyone talks 'gender slang' and it reads like men were x'ed out saying workress' instead of 'workers', cook'ess, runner'ess ... in English this really just would sound daft. They even don't use that * or gap any more, they don't use "worker and (female worker) work'ress"( --> Arbeiter'in(singular)/Arbeiter*innen (plural) , they writer only Arbeiterin/Arbeiterinnen, and that's like men are out of scope.
Okay, it has been predominantly male terms all the time, so why should women not get their reign?
Yet it would be more nice to find a term to address all people, even the small percentage of Hermaphroditus verus and true Intersexuals.

I dunno what they would call artificial folks, as they are objects and neither of a biological sex.
Sorry, I get funny thoughts be thinking about things like this. :D

I never really understood the wage difference. I thought people should get paid by the measure value/quality of the wirk they do. A lot of women do better or more work than some men and vice versa. Not every woman does need a family/child care time and there are lots of men that care for children, taking a time off for a few years. So that women vs men dictate of roles as it was used to justify the wage difference doesn't convince any longer. On many a job field, also, performance capacity is not up to muscle mass difference any longer.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 21 May 2020, 01:10

harel wrote:Why are you asking about the reasons for child custody gender gap only?

Because it’s the favorite example fedora owners love to bring up in such conversations.

harel wrote:For example, the gender gap in pay persists due to the fact that men are more likely than women to work 50 hours-plus a week, found a recent study published by the American Sociological Review. The extra hours — known as “overwork” — , on average, in an extra 6% in hourly wages across all occupations: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10 ... 2414528936

Right, and what does your study point to as one of the reasons for this? The very thing I raised in my earlier post:

Overwork and theSlow Convergence in the Gender Gap in Wages wrote:Most explanations for women’s underrep- resentation among overworkers point to women’s greater responsibility for family caregiving (Blair-Loy 2003; Cha 2010, 2013; Clarkberg and Moen 2001; Hochschild and Machung [1989] 2003; Jacobs and Gerson 2004). Although men now spend more time on housework and childcare than in the past (Bianchi et al. 2012; Raley, Bianchi, and Wang 2012), essentialist beliefs about female caregiving continue to be a dominant cultural ideology even among people who endorse gender egalitarianism (Cotter at al. 2011). As a result, decisions about childrearing and family activities still tend to be made and implemented primarily by women (Crittenden 2002; Hochschild and Machung [1989] 2003; Stone 2007), women spend the same or a greater amount of time with their children as they did in prior decades (Bianchi et al. 2012), and the rising time requirements of elder care also disproportionately fall on women’s shoulders (Wolff and Kasper 2006).


harel wrote:Men are likely to get longer sentences for the same crimes: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... 06.00383.x.

Again, what’s sticking? You seem to be making noise without actually delving into why these disparities might arise to begin with, only to validate what I said earlier with posts that seem to align with the feminist perspective. Help me out. What’s that thing called that refers to a paternalistic system of gender rules based on natural observations translated into normative impositions in the ways the sexes ought to behave? I know there’s a word for that but I’m drawing a blank.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Derek » 21 May 2020, 02:16

poolerboy0077 wrote:
harel wrote:Men are likely to get longer sentences for the same crimes: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... 06.00383.x.

Again, what’s sticking? You seem to be making noise without actually delving into why these disparities might arise to begin with, only to validate what I said earlier with posts that seem to align with the feminist perspective. Help me out. What’s that thing called that refers to a paternalistic system of gender rules based on natural observations translated into normative impositions in the ways the sexes ought to behave? I know there’s a word for that but I’m drawing a blank.

P... p... pa...

Matriarchy?
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Sullivan » 21 May 2020, 02:38

Just wanna drive by and point out my lack of surprise that OP is Dutch.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 21 May 2020, 03:21

Derek wrote:
poolerboy0077 wrote:
harel wrote:Men are likely to get longer sentences for the same crimes: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... 06.00383.x.

Again, what’s sticking? You seem to be making noise without actually delving into why these disparities might arise to begin with, only to validate what I said earlier with posts that seem to align with the feminist perspective. Help me out. What’s that thing called that refers to a paternalistic system of gender rules based on natural observations translated into normative impositions in the ways the sexes ought to behave? I know there’s a word for that but I’m drawing a blank.

P... p... pa...

Matriarchy?

And you doubted my description of your humor.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Magic J » 21 May 2020, 09:34

harel wrote:Also, recently, I read a summary of a research project, which is related to a new trend of homoconservatism (in the Netherlands).

Homoconservatism? Bah! Y'all need to convert to bisexuality, lest ye be corrupted.

Although, bisexuality is looking a bit staid these days. Might have to become omni to retain radical cred.

On the question, nah. Sure there's issues which effect men disproportionately. And in my, admittedly limited reading, these are issues which have, largely, been brought to light and articulated by feminist thinkers, or thinkers working with those conceptual tools. I don't see how this is an either/or issue.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Choicespecs » 21 May 2020, 10:26

I do feel masculinity as a whole has gotten swooped up by the "Down with the patriarchy" movement. The idea we can't have true equality until we destroy masculinity. But I think it does alienate a lot of men or good qualities of masculinity.

Male mental health and suicide are still disproportionately higher and increases everyday (https://www.samaritans.org/about-samari ... d-figures/)

but the current discourse is dominated by "Toxic Masculinity". Which in of itself is a bit vague for me. And is that really the answer to this crises?
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby GaySpacePirateKing » 21 May 2020, 15:42

At best I thinks its throwing your toys out the pram at feminism because men have issues too, which ironically I think could only harm discussions about problems men face.

And at worst a reactionary attempt to write off feminism and construct the privileged group as the victim similar in style to 'blue lives matter' or white identitarianism.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 21 May 2020, 15:54

Choicespecs wrote:Male mental health and suicide are still disproportionately higher and increases everyday (https://www.samaritans.org/about-samari ... d-figures/)

but the current discourse is dominated by "Toxic Masculinity". Which in of itself is a bit vague for me. And is that really the answer to this crises?

I mean, regardless of whatever you wish to call the underlying phenomenon, it certainly seems like a very reasonable explanation as to what’s going on in the minds of these men, although certainly not a complete picture.
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