Masculism

Discuss the news, current events, politics, etc.

Are you a masculinist?

certainly yes
1
13%
rather yes
3
38%
rather no
3
38%
certainly no
1
13%
 
Total votes : 8

Re: Masculism

Unread postby harel » 21 May 2020, 17:17

Poolerboy0077 indicated that women’s underrepresentation among overworkers has been linked with women’s greater responsibility for family caregiving. Let me test this hypothesis. Please have a look at the average of working hours per age for single men and women without kids. The data come from U.S. Census Bureau American Community Survey 2017.
single men and women without kids.jpg


Magic J wrote:Sure there's issues which effect men disproportionately. And in my, admittedly limited reading, these are issues which have, largely, been brought to light and articulated by feminist thinkers, or thinkers working with those conceptual tools. I don't see how this is an either/or issue.

My dear fellow, I have never heard feminists discussing the gender gap in sentencing, in cancer prevention (e.g. cancer screening), or in the European Union funds projects.

harel wrote:Men get longer sentences for the same crimes: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... 06.00383.x
Men have a higher retirement age for the same jobs in most countries of the world.
Less money is spent on prostate and testicular cancer research and treatment than breast and cervical cancer research and treatment, also if calculated per patient or death.
Mothers are more likely to get custody of the children after a divorce.
In the European Union funds projects, according to the partnership agreements, there are usually 60%-70% quotas for women: https://ec.europa.eu/info/funding-tende ... t-funds_en

For clarity, above, I have mentioned only some areas where men are likely to be at a disadvantage, compared with women. Recently, I read a study, where it was shown that boys are likely to get lower grades for the same quality of work in the classroom than their female counterparts. The data used in that study came from a Western country. I will post this paper next week.

Sullivan wrote:Just wanna drive by and point out my lack of surprise that OP is Dutch.

I am Jewish. I have never been to the Netherlands. In the first post in the thread, I have mentioned a project from the Netherlands, because I was recently looking for a job abroad.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 21 May 2020, 18:51

harel wrote:Poolerboy0077 indicated that women’s underrepresentation among overworkers has been linked with women’s greater responsibility for family caregiving. Let me test this hypothesis. Please have a look at the average of working hours per age for single men and women without kids. The data come from U.S. Census Bureau American Community Survey 2017.
single men and women without kids.jpg


You do realize that all I did was cite one of many explanations for the phenomenon from the very study you cited yourself. Did you even click and read your own link? Or did you just assume reality has a bias in your favor?

What do we even call these own goals? At every turn you’ve been left holding your fedora in one hand and your dick in the other.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby harel » 21 May 2020, 19:11

Poolerboy0077, yes, I have seen the source of the information cited by you. However, there is no need to be limited to one particular study. In my previous post, I referred to data from U.S. Census Bureau American Community Survey.

poolerboy0077 wrote:At every turn you’ve been left holding your fedora in one hand and your dick in the other.

I have never worn fedora. :shake:
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Magic J » 21 May 2020, 23:02

harel wrote:
Magic J wrote:Sure there's issues which effect men disproportionately. And in my, admittedly limited reading, these are issues which have, largely, been brought to light and articulated by feminist thinkers, or thinkers working with those conceptual tools. I don't see how this is an either/or issue.

My dear fellow, I have never heard feminists discussing the gender gap in sentencing, in cancer prevention (e.g. cancer screening), or in the European Union funds projects.

Oh. Well. I have? I've had several discussions with self proclaimed feminists on issues in which men are mistreated as men. The gender disparities in homelessness and men's work/life balance were also issues which came up quite frequently. I can see that it might be a particular kind of feminist who expands their analysis to encompass how gender-relations impact everybody, rather than women only, but that's generally the kind of people I've talked to.

Less anecdotally, here's a 2012 paper on gender disparities in sex crime conviction from the journal Feminist Current; supporting the "chivalry hypothesis", in which it is theorised that women are generally seen as less responsible for their actions and in need of greater protection (i.e. it suggests that it is rooted in sexism). There's plenty of papers focusing on gender disparities in sentencing in the references (I've not read all of them, fyi. Life's too short to read legal analysis :P). Now, I'm not saying I necessarily agree with the chivalry hypothesis, but it's certainly something I've heard talked about not infrequently when crime issues come up.

Now, you could take a different stance and ask, "well why do we treat men so harshly in these circumstances?", and you could plausibly suggest, along with some MRAs, that men are seen by judges as less valuable, lost causes, delinquents, less amenable to rehabilitation, requiring of physical disciplining, etc. That could certainly be true. And all those harsh sentences on men are generally handed down by judges who are, also, mostly men. So I'm led to ask whether the dominant, historically masculine-centred legal regime is perhaps flawed in this regard. It seems to me that feministy theory is well placed to critique that kind of sexist bias, if it exists. Indeed, prison reform and abolition is historically an issue which feminists have been greatly involved in. They may perhaps, naturally, focus on incarcerated women, but they push for change in the full knowledge that most prisoners are men, since everybody knows that.

That's the only one of the three issues I'm barely informed on. No idea about cancer screening or EU funding.

I suppose that the central issue for me is that, whilst it is obviously possible (and worthwhile, imo), to pursue "masculism" as one focus, it in practice often merely amounts to a kind of crude anti-feminism. Not necessarily, of course, there's been plenty of writers who've written about men as men, without taking an anti-feminist stance. Robert Bly's Iron John springs to mind (it's a bit mystical and primitivist for my taste, but interesting all the same). I'm not inclined towards the type of thought that posits that women have too much power, and this must be reduced in order to help men, which from what I can see, is frequently the line of reasoning. If that's a mischaracterisation, I apologise, but that's the basic reason why I wouldn't want to say I'm a "masculnist" or whatever. And don't get me wrong, I'm very concerned about the state of men, I just don't see that feminism fundamentally contributes to the problems they face. Indeed, it can help to alleviate some of them.

Soz for the long post. Here's my obligatory "it's capitalism, I tell's ya!" swivel-eyed screaming to round off.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 22 May 2020, 00:26

harel wrote:Poolerboy0077, yes, I have seen the source of the information cited by you.

No, you cited the study and I referenced it to show that it agrees with what I’ve been mentioning. But you’re missing the forest for the trees. The reality is you’re intent on discounting an entire academic field of inquiry that has grappled with these very issues and offered theories that help explain why any of these disparities, injustices and so forth may arise. By contrast, you and “masculinist” groups offer us no working explanations for why any of this occurs to any depth, only persisting in rejecting feminist academia. You cite studies and don’t read them. You’re not even engaging with what anyone here has written. You’re only engaging in monologue.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Choicespecs » 22 May 2020, 09:32

poolerboy0077 wrote:
Choicespecs wrote:Male mental health and suicide are still disproportionately higher and increases everyday (https://www.samaritans.org/about-samari ... d-figures/)

but the current discourse is dominated by "Toxic Masculinity". Which in of itself is a bit vague for me. And is that really the answer to this crises?

I mean, regardless of whatever you wish to call the underlying phenomenon, it certainly seems like a very reasonable explanation as to what’s going on in the minds of these men, although certainly not a complete picture.


I see what you mean and would not argue with you there. Personally, I think there is a little too much focus on what men do wrong rather than what they do right in the current narrative. Reading through what others have said, perhaps it's a extreme but loud minority of feminists (Read: not just females) who have taken this approach.

I do see there are a lot of emotional suppression from a lot of men. Which does get policed by men, which does attribute to 'Toxic Masculinity'. I am not going to pretend, I have not watched the documentary you posted. But I will watch it later when I have time. I am interested to see it.
.
I have watched a few videos by Nick Fuentes, just to see what the extreme Masculinists believe. They do prose very radical arguments. And due to Nick Fuentes popularity and the increase in extreme masculinity, it does highlight that there is something out of touch with the contemporary narrative for a lot of young men.

Both sides don't show the full picture. But the situation does seem to be escalating.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Magic J » 22 May 2020, 12:18

Choicespecs wrote:I have watched a few videos by Nick Fuentes, just to see what the extreme Masculinists believe. They do prose very radical arguments. And due to Nick Fuentes popularity and the increase in extreme masculinity, it does highlight that there is something out of touch with the contemporary narrative for a lot of young men.

I'd no idea who this guy was. Quick googlin' indicates he's more known for holocaust denial, general racist shenanigans, and the belief that gay men are paedophiles: the Unholy Trifecta! Which is... interesting. If he's an example of high-level masculinism, as you say, then I'd suggest that a flawed "contemporary narrative" on masculinity is the least of his concerns. :P

But on the point you make about "toxic masculinity", yeah, I can see where you're coming from. I think there can be a tendency towards theory creep, whereby "toxic elements to masculinity" morphs into "masculinity is toxic" and then "men are toxic" (and finally, the counter in "the word 'toxic' is toxic" :P). That sort of creep should be challenged, of course. Personally, I think there can be a bit of a problem using the phrase "toxic masculinity", since "toxicity" seems to more often now be used to imply individual bad behaviour, rather than the systematic nature of the problems, as it was intended by the people who initially promoted the idea (they were men, incidentally). So, I simply don't use the term when thinking about the problem.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby harel » 22 May 2020, 15:36

Magic J wrote:I can see that it might be a particular kind of feminist who expands their analysis to encompass how gender-relations impact everybody, rather than women only, but that's generally the kind of people I've talked to.

It is great that you know feminists who are tolerant. For example, software engineer James Damore was fired from Google, because he posted on the Google discussion forum that tech industry's gender gap can be attributed to biological differences between men and women, among other things. He has referred to academic papers. The next day he was fired from Google.


Choicespecs wrote:videos by Nick Fuentes

I do not know him, but there are less radical youtubers with somewhat masculinist viewpoints, e.g.:
The Rubin Report (he is gay, by the way),
Ben Shapiro,
PragerU.

By the way, it is fascinating that James Damore, Dave Rubin, Dennis Prager, and Ben Shapiro are all Jewish.

poolerboy0077 wrote:No, you cited the study and I referenced it

Yes, I know. We both cited the work by Youngjoo Chaa and Kim A. Weeden.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby GaySpacePirateKing » 22 May 2020, 19:10

From the point of view that not all masculinity is bad then I don't see any problem with the term 'toxic masculinity', because that is the point of the term that some elements that are commonly described as masculine are harmful to men, women and society. So it seems like it agrees with that point of view.

I don't think feminism goes after masculine gender expression anyway, but what we regard as masculine and regard as feminine is socially constructed. I think that is the point.

Moreover though masculinity and femininity pressure men and women to behave in certain ways and I don't think are always very helpful terms.

Also if you think of the traits which commonly are attributed to masculinity like dominance, competitiveness, aggression and unemotional then on a society scale those are extremely harmful and in fact they are authoritarian traits. Institutions and systems based upon those traits (which our dominant ones are) are authoritarian.

On the other hand traits commonly attributed to femininity like compassion, co-operation, nurturing and sensitivity are very beneficial and in fact are libertarian.

Anyway I do not at all feel threatened by feminism and I am attracted to masculinity usually, although a lot of the time getting to the bottom of what masculinity actually entails confuses the fuck out of me. For quite some time I did consider masculinity to be a real tangible thing, but the more I have thought about it over the years then the more I realise that it is impossible to describe it, that it works differently for everyone and traits that might be said to be common in men or in woman are also observed regularly enough in the opposite sex too.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Derek » 22 May 2020, 19:46

harel wrote:The Rubin Report (he is gay, by the way),
Ben Shapiro,
PragerU.

Holy shit, what an all-star cast of insufferable dorks.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby harel » 22 May 2020, 20:12

Look, they are better than Nick Fuentes, who was mentioned in this thread as the only example for masculinist-oriented youtuber. I have never heard about Nick Fuentes, but he was shortly summarised by Magic J. This sounds scary:
Magic J wrote:Quick googlin' indicates he's more known for holocaust denial, general racist shenanigans, and the belief that gay men are paedophiles: the Unholy Trifecta! Which is... interesting. If he's an example of high-level masculinism, as you say, then I'd suggest that a flawed "contemporary narrative" on masculinity is the least of his concerns.

What about James Damore's case? What do you think about his disciplinary dismissal from Google?
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Magic J » 22 May 2020, 20:20

Derek wrote:
harel wrote:The Rubin Report (he is gay, by the way),
Ben Shapiro,
PragerU.

Holy shit, what an all-star cast of insufferable dorks.

Isn't PragerU a Big Oil propaganda outlet, or something? :lol:

GaySpacePirateKing wrote:From the point of view that not all masculinity is bad then I don't see any problem with the term 'toxic masculinity', because that is the point of the term that some elements that are commonly described as masculine are harmful to men, women and society. So it seems like it agrees with that point of view.

Oh yes, I think it was intended much as you say, it's just that I sometimes
see it used in a condemnatory way, and I think it might be slipping in force because of that. Such is the fate of many useful analytical terms. :P I might just have heard bad discussions, though.

harel wrote:What about James Damore's case?

Think I know who you're referring to, but not sure on the details. I'll have a look in a bit.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby GaySpacePirateKing » 22 May 2020, 20:21

harel wrote:What about James Damore's case? What do you think about his disciplinary dismissal from Google?


He put forward a sexist idea and got fired for it not surprisingly because it would reputationaly damage a company to keep someone like that on especially in an industry already accused of sexism. Hard to feel sorry for him for that.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Derek » 22 May 2020, 20:23

harel wrote:Look, they are better than Nick Fuentes

What an achievement. You know, that's really what it comes down to for me. How do you come to the realization that your views are best embodied by figures like Dave Rubin ( :pukey: ), Ben Shapiro ( :pukey: :pukey: ), or PragerU ( :pukey: :pukey: :pukey: :pukey: :pukey: ), and resist the urge to immediately forsake all your worldly possessions and join a convent? That's seriously the most embarrassing thing I've read in weeks.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Brenden » 22 May 2020, 20:33

Derek wrote:
harel wrote:The Rubin Report (he is gay, by the way),
Ben Shapiro,
PragerU.

Holy shit, what an all-star cast of insufferable dorks.

I don't think you should be so cruel to dorks.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Brenden » 22 May 2020, 20:35

GaySpacePirateKing wrote:
harel wrote:What about James Damore's case? What do you think about his disciplinary dismissal from Google?

He put forward a sexist idea and got fired for it not surprisingly because it would reputationaly damage a company to keep someone like that on especially in an industry already accused of sexism. Hard to feel sorry for him for that.

He wrote a memo citing psychologic, sociologic, and neurologic facts.

I guess reality is "sexist". :shrug:
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Brenden » 22 May 2020, 20:44

Magic J wrote:
harel wrote:What about James Damore's case?

Think I know who you're referring to, but not sure on the details. I'll have a look in a bit.

Here is the memo in question.
Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby GaySpacePirateKing » 22 May 2020, 21:08

Brenden wrote:
GaySpacePirateKing wrote:
harel wrote:What about James Damore's case? What do you think about his disciplinary dismissal from Google?

He put forward a sexist idea and got fired for it not surprisingly because it would reputationaly damage a company to keep someone like that on especially in an industry already accused of sexism. Hard to feel sorry for him for that.

He wrote a memo citing several psychologic, sociologic, and neurologic studies.

I guess reality is "sexist". :shrug:


Backing things up with citations doesn't mean you are correct. I suspect that he probably took parts of those papers out of context or was biased in what papers he looked at and which that he did not, because somehow I can't imagine saying that biological differences are responsible for the gender gap would not be something that would be heavily contested in psychology, sociology and neurology. Especially sociology. It also does not make it any less of a sexist position to hold and the idiot used googles own messaging board to make the point so I think he got what he deserved.
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Brenden » 22 May 2020, 21:16

GaySpacePirateKing wrote:It also does not make it any less of a sexist position to hold and the idiot used googles own messaging board to make the point so I think he got what he deserved.

God, you're insufferable. Where else would be publish a memo about his company meant to highlight an issue within the company and make the company better?
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Re: Masculism

Unread postby Brenden » 22 May 2020, 21:21

Why It’s Time To Stop Worrying About First World ‘Gender Gaps’
Aaron Neil wrote:Some may argue that patriarchal social factors encourage women into stereotypically feminine fields (childcare, nursing etc.), and discourage them from pursuing STEM related careers. However, if one were to make the case that societal factors determine choices made by men and women, you would expect that in more egalitarian countries, the sexes would make similar career choices, and thus, gender gaps would recede. However, studying sex differences across 55 different cultures, Schmitt, Realo, Voracek, & Allik, came to the opposite conclusion (emphasis added):

With improved national wealth and equality of the sexes, it seems differences between men and women in personality traits do not diminish. On the contrary, the differences become conspicuously larger.


They also made this statement remarking on their own extensive research (emphasis added):

In this study, a collection of eight different gender equality indicators provided a comprehensive set of measures that assess disparity between male and female roles in society. In every case, significant findings suggest that greater nation-level gender equality leads to psychological dissimilarity in men’s and women’s personality traits.


Gender gaps do not decrease in egalitarian countries. Rather, they increase. According to the authors, this is because as “society becomes more prosperous and more egalitarian, innate dispositional differences between men and women have more space to develop and the gap that exists between men and women in their personality traits becomes wider” (emphasis added).

In other words, in prosperous and egalitarian countries, people are free to pursue their respective career interests. Since men and women are innately different, they pursue different vocations based on dissimilar interests. Therefore, equal representation is an inaccurate measure of gender egalitarianism, simply because in egalitarian countries, gender gaps are the most robust.
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