Political Compass

Discuss the news, current events, politics, etc.

Re: Political Compass

Unread postby rogonandi » 20 November 2018, 07:32

Simple_Man wrote:
Zoop wrote:
rogonandi wrote:Considering what I have seen and what I endure, this isn’t a surprise at all.


I think people who go through a lot tend to be on the left of the spectrum. They tend to be a lot more understanding of others in similar situations :hug:


I think i feel the total opposite. I didnt grow up in money and have had to struggle to get where i am now. Nobody ever gave me a handout or helped me. Everything i have i worked hard for and feel proud of it. And that's made me really lean more to the right then the left. That's just my take on things out here though. I dont really like neither of the major parties out here much.


All I had when I left home was the clothes on my back and the money I made from some previous employment, but I won’t say that everything I had was self earned. That’s pretty arrogant of me to say.

I never would have been able to achieve what I have, modest as it appears to others, if these employers didn’t believe in me. They could have followed their initial judgement and passed me over, writing me off as the developmentally impaired man I appear to others as. The same could be said of landlords and others. They could have shunned me but didn’t, and I thank them for it. This isn’t even mentioning the medical costs it took to prevent my death.

I definitely know to appreciate government helping those with little going for them. Even if it means paying more in taxes and such.
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Re: Political Compass

Unread postby PopTart » 20 November 2018, 16:33

It's kinda difficult here int he Uk with regards to social welfare.

I totally think we need it, that there are alot of people who very much deserve to get it, but the systems in place are just so poorly designed (and getting worse under the current government) that people rightly view the current system, from both sides of the political spectrum, with deep distrust and dislike.

I know some people, who social welfare has saved in alot of ways, given them time to overcome mental and physical health issues, to go on to work damn hard to pay back into the system and be productive.

But I also have a family member, who has abused the system to such a degree, that if she wasn't family, I'd have a much lower opinion of her for it. At one point, she was sitting at home, dragging up her kids, rather than raising them, buying new cars all the time, pets galore and shopping at all the up-market supermarkets, recieving more in benefits than I do working full time and I find it galling.

All the while I watched a close friend of mine, with serious depression and social anxiety, who desperately wanted to be well and work and live a productive life, being pushed off he benefits that she could barely live on.
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Re: Political Compass

Unread postby Derek » 20 November 2018, 17:06

It still seems weird to me how most people are in the bottom left. Shouldn't libertarian answers push you to the right? What economic position is simultaneously left and libertarian?
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Re: Political Compass

Unread postby PopTart » 20 November 2018, 18:34

Derek wrote:It still seems weird to me how most people are in the bottom left. Shouldn't libertarian answers push you to the right? What economic position is simultaneously left and libertarian?

I honestly thought alot of the answers i gave would lead to a more left-authoritarian result. But apparantly not!
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Re: Political Compass

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 21 November 2018, 05:35

Derek wrote:It still seems weird to me how most people are in the bottom left. Shouldn't libertarian answers push you to the right? What economic position is simultaneously left and libertarian?

Has you political orientation changed as of late? I’ve noticed you’re not as much of an asshole as before. Don’t get me wrong; you’re still an asshole, just not as flagrantly assholey.
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Re: Political Compass

Unread postby Derek » 21 November 2018, 05:49

poolerboy0077 wrote:Has you political orientation changed as of late? I’ve noticed you’re not as much of an asshole as before. Don’t get me wrong; you’re still an asshole, just not as flagrantly assholey.

I've gotten a lot of practice keeping my mouth shut since the Trump got elected.
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Re: Political Compass

Unread postby Brenden » 21 November 2018, 10:05

Derek wrote:It still seems weird to me how most people are in the bottom left. Shouldn't libertarian answers push you to the right? What economic position is simultaneously left and libertarian?

One of the biggest impediments to liberty is economic disadvantage.

Employers are the most authoritarian elements in most people’s lives.
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Re: Political Compass

Unread postby Derek » 21 November 2018, 19:49

Brenden wrote:
Derek wrote:It still seems weird to me how most people are in the bottom left. Shouldn't libertarian answers push you to the right? What economic position is simultaneously left and libertarian?

One of the biggest impediments to liberty is economic disadvantage.

Employers are the most authoritarian elements in most people’s lives.

I wonder, then, how one distinguishes authoritarian interventionist economic policy designed to favor the working class and libertarian interventionist economic policy designed to favor the working class. The upper-left quadrant suffers from bad associations, but crossing the axis seems like less like switching sides than simply scaling it down.
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Re: Political Compass

Unread postby Yeauxleaux » 21 November 2018, 20:06

It seems like "kinda socialist" but more in a reformist kind of way than outright overturning the system.

For me I feel like in an ideal world, there would be more fairness and protections in place, and certainly a reduction in the wealth gap between rich and poor. However, at the same time I do think some form of hierarchy and competition, a healthy amount of capitalism, is necessary and increases productivity in society. There also has to be some real tangible incentive for working hard and building, otherwise nothing works, you can't force the "proletariat" to work hard and build for you on empty promises of patriotism and "for the people!" forever. That doesn't work and it's partly why most authoritarian communist societies don't stay that way for very long.

I also think things like social security, welfare and benefits should be more invested in helping people be self-sufficient and not make stupid self-sabotaging decisions with their lives, not so much just throwing money at people and hoping they learn themselves. People do need help, but you're better off in the long-term helping them to help themselves instead of making them dependent on welfare. I don't believe in this totally Republican welfare-cuts, nobody should get help, rely on charity sort of mindset though. Businesses should not be able to do whatever the fuck they want either, at the expense of human rights and the environment (although I do partly think it's on regular people to decide to boycott and be sensible with their money and who they support, but that doesn't happen, we never got on one accord to take action like that, so yes regulation has to be a plan B in the meantime).

Socially I'm pretty libertarian and "do what the fuck you like as long as you're not hurting anyone or the environment, just be accountable for your actions". I'm pretty open-minded. Where I don't like a lot of the modern left is the authoritarian policing of anything deemed "not liberal enough". This is especially when it's done selectively, where these people will micro-analyse literally everything "oppressive!" about Western culture and then defend the exact same shit (even far worse) in Islam and other cultures. That's annoying and hypocritical at best, if not outright destructive.

That's how I feel as someone who is (moderately) on the bottom left, I don't speak for everyone though.
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Re: Political Compass

Unread postby Brenden » 21 November 2018, 22:02

Derek wrote:
Brenden wrote:
Derek wrote:It still seems weird to me how most people are in the bottom left. Shouldn't libertarian answers push you to the right? What economic position is simultaneously left and libertarian?

One of the biggest impediments to liberty is economic disadvantage.

Employers are the most authoritarian elements in most people’s lives.

I wonder, then, how one distinguishes authoritarian interventionist economic policy designed to favor the working class and libertarian interventionist economic policy designed to favor the working class. The upper-left quadrant suffers from bad associations, but crossing the axis seems like less like switching sides than simply scaling it down.

You’re under the assumption that left economic policy can only be interventionist.
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Re: Political Compass

Unread postby Derek » 21 November 2018, 22:29

For example?
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Re: Political Compass

Unread postby Brenden » 21 November 2018, 22:46

I am partial to Georgism.
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Re: Political Compass

Unread postby Derek » 21 November 2018, 23:43

That's a great example of why the spectrum stuff is stupid. A tax plan endorsed by Adam Smith and Milton Friedman is aligned with the left? That makes no sense. And how do you compare where different sources of tax revenue fall on the verticle axis relative to each other? It's just a false dichotomy.
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Re: Political Compass

Unread postby Brenden » 22 November 2018, 17:34

Oh yes, an economic philosophy in which land and natural resources belong to everyone equally, which seeks to remedy the current situation of unequal property distribution by simply taxing and not outright taking and managing property, and in which the fruit of labour belongs to the labourer, is totally not left and libertarian. /s
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Re: Political Compass

Unread postby Satsuma » 22 November 2018, 17:36

It always gets my blood boiling when I think about all those empty properties owned by the rich :madred:
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Re: Political Compass

Unread postby PopTart » 22 November 2018, 21:16

Zoop wrote:It always gets my blood boiling when I think about all those empty properties owned by the rich :madred:

Tell me about it! This one gets my goat alot too.
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Re: Political Compass

Unread postby PopTart » 22 November 2018, 22:00

Yeauxleaux wrote:It seems like "kinda socialist" but more in a reformist kind of way than outright overturning the system.

For me I feel like in an ideal world, there would be more fairness and protections in place, and certainly a reduction in the wealth gap between rich and poor. However, at the same time I do think some form of hierarchy and competition, a healthy amount of capitalism, is necessary and increases productivity in society. There also has to be some real tangible incentive for working hard and building, otherwise nothing works, you can't force the "proletariat" to work hard and build for you on empty promises of patriotism and "for the people!" forever. That doesn't work and it's partly why most authoritarian communist societies don't stay that way for very long.

I also think things like social security, welfare and benefits should be more invested in helping people be self-sufficient and not make stupid self-sabotaging decisions with their lives, not so much just throwing money at people and hoping they learn themselves. People do need help, but you're better off in the long-term helping them to help themselves instead of making them dependent on welfare. I don't believe in this totally Republican welfare-cuts, nobody should get help, rely on charity sort of mindset though. Businesses should not be able to do whatever the fuck they want either, at the expense of human rights and the environment (although I do partly think it's on regular people to decide to boycott and be sensible with their money and who they support, but that doesn't happen, we never got on one accord to take action like that, so yes regulation has to be a plan B in the meantime).

Socially I'm pretty libertarian and "do what the fuck you like as long as you're not hurting anyone or the environment, just be accountable for your actions". I'm pretty open-minded. Where I don't like a lot of the modern left is the authoritarian policing of anything deemed "not liberal enough". This is especially when it's done selectively, where these people will micro-analyse literally everything "oppressive!" about Western culture and then defend the exact same shit (even far worse) in Islam and other cultures. That's annoying and hypocritical at best, if not outright destructive.

That's how I feel as someone who is (moderately) on the bottom left, I don't speak for everyone though.

This is pretty much my stance in a nutshell!
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Re: Political Compass

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 23 November 2018, 18:11

I’m a conservative in the streets but a liberal in the sheets.

On a more serious note, have you noticed conservatives quite liberally (hurr) moralize virtually everything: poverty, addiction, sexuality, etc.? It’s the reason white men in the U.S. are causing a spike in suicides; if you are having trouble finding a job, which gives a lot of people their identity, and you happen to grow up in rural America inculcated with the idea that you have to be the breadwinner and that you are squarely responsible for all your actions regardless of circumstances, the result is an unwarranted self blame. Conservatism is literally killing men over a distorted perception of reality.
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Re: Political Compass

Unread postby bubbling_over » 23 November 2018, 18:36

I'm quite liberal (also according to this compass), and don't judge anyone by their political opinion (or try not to, let's be honest, we all have trouble with that). However, I feel like everyone should be okay with others having basic human rights - the rest of politics is so complex that we all could spend days discussing it.
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Re: Political Compass

Unread postby Derek » 27 November 2018, 03:40

Brenden wrote:Oh yes, an economic philosophy in which land and natural resources belong to everyone equally, which seeks to remedy the current situation of unequal property distribution by simply taxing and not outright taking and managing property, and in which the fruit of labour belongs to the labourer, is totally not left and libertarian. /s

I imagine the basis of Friedman's endorsement is that an unimproved land tax doesn't discourage economic activity or skew incentives. Is it inherently leftist to favor policies which encourage productivity in labor? Granted you desire a certain amount of tax revenue, is it libertarian to tax one form of economic activity instead of another?

I understand your rationale, but I'm still not sure if it's libertarian. I mean, yeah, you could collectivize land ownership instead of just taxing it, but again, it comes to me less like a difference in concept than in degree.
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