Pray the Gay Away

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Re: Pray the Gay Away

Unread postby Jzone » 6 September 2019, 01:21

Derek wrote:Margins shift, but the outliers are always there.

The man in the article is an outlier. Most anti-gay sentiment is knee-jerk laziness - idiots who don't know any gay people and are reflexively hostile to anything foreign. But this guy can't claim ignorance as an excuse. In fact, he knows better than almost anyone else. It's not normal and deserves examination on those terms.

I don't see this guy as an outlier, but simply as a leader. Leaders are rare, and can only succeed in their efforts if others support their ideas. He wasn't operating alone, luring gays into a dark basement for abuse. His actions were likely the result of his own sexual repression, his inability to reconcile his orientation with his self-image and worldview, and the religious culture he was immersed in. I think he actually was ignorant to reality. He probably believed what he was doing was the right thing, and had people around him telling him the same.

I totally agree with you that his actions and transformation deserve examination. Beginning with the idea of evil will lead that examination down the wrong path, as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Pray the Gay Away

Unread postby Derek » 6 September 2019, 02:54

I should say I'm playing devil's advocate. I really am just curious how others feel.

Jzone wrote:I don't see this guy as an outlier, but simply as a leader. Leaders are rare, and can only succeed in their efforts if others support their ideas. He wasn't operating alone, luring gays into a dark basement for abuse.

One could say that evil only becomes more pronounced in groups.

His actions were likely the result of his own sexual repression, his inability to reconcile his orientation with his self-image and worldview, and the religious culture he was immersed in. I think he actually was ignorant to reality. He probably believed what he was doing was the right thing, and had people around him telling him the same.

This is what I wonder about. I think it's very easy for people to convince themselves they're doing the right thing, no matter what that is. Assuming everyone is just rationalizing, the actual explanation for their behavior is that they do it because they like doing it. Or, rather, it's a combination of both explanations. But I don't buy that anyone operates on pure ideology. It's why most Christians don't take their beliefs to the extremes a literal interpretation of their book would suggest. Something has to be mentally wrong with someone who can surround themselves with extremes of suffering and remain convinced their actions are righteous for decades on-end.

I totally agree with you that his actions and transformation deserve examination. Beginning with the idea of evil will lead that examination down the wrong path, as far as I'm concerned.

I think dismissing the idea out of hand is, in fact, the narrow-minded approach. Just because you can explain evil in clinical terms doesn't mean it's not real, whether it's measured in intentions or consequences.
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Re: Pray the Gay Away

Unread postby Jzone » 6 September 2019, 14:14

Derek wrote:I should say I'm playing devil's advocate. I really am just curious how others feel.
Thanks for that. Curiosity is what drives me.

Derek wrote:I think it's very easy for people to convince themselves they're doing the right thing, no matter what that is. Assuming everyone is just rationalizing, the actual explanation for their behavior is that they do it because they like doing it. Or, rather, it's a combination of both explanations. But I don't buy that anyone operates on pure ideology. It's why most Christians don't take their beliefs to the extremes a literal interpretation of their book would suggest. Something has to be mentally wrong with someone who can surround themselves with extremes of suffering and remain convinced their actions are righteous for decades on-end.

Rationalizing is a conscious act, and I think many people never consciously consider most of their beliefs and motivations (beyond superficial affirmation). I think saying people do things "because they like doing it" is too simple. Rather, I'd say many of the things people do are because they get positive reinforcement by doing them. That includes things they like or take pleasure in, as well as things that gain them approval from their social circle. I think this aspect is huge.

This guy was not surrounded with extremes of suffering. He was surrounded by positive feedback for the "good" he and his organization were doing. The suffering and suicides were buried under hundreds of success stories and testimonials from people who had been "saved".
I think dismissing the idea out of hand is, in fact, the narrow-minded approach. Just because you can explain evil in clinical terms doesn't mean it's not real, whether it's measured in intentions or consequences.

I haven't dismissed the idea of evil out of hand. I have considered it deeply and come to the conclusion that it does not exist — at least as a noun. There are actions that I would agree are evil acts, but even then I have a hard time defining the person as evil. Saying someone is just evil or motivated by evil can sabotage the process of examining what really motivated their behavior.
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Re: Pray the Gay Away

Unread postby rxxli » 8 September 2019, 00:55

I've seen two interesting movies on this topic that somebody might find interesting.

One is called Kidnapped For Chirst. It's a documentary on this topic... but what's special about it, is that it follows some kids pretty much through the entire process. While this one doesn't specifically target gay conversion therapy (but more "fix my kid"), the kid that it focuses mostly on was there because he was gay. The filmmaker that made this film had the permission of this institution to be there, because she wanted (and believed) to show how they were helping kids. Then she found out the truth and the movie changed quite a bit. Really a great documentary.

The other is a "normal" movie called Boy Erased. Really nice movie with a story that follows a guy (college aged) being put through gay conversion therapy by his parents.

Both of these movies are heartbreaking to watch. For different reasons of course. But what they have in common is the fact that you can imagine what kids that go through this stuff suffer.

And yes, the bastards that do this are just that - bastards.
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Re: Pray the Gay Away

Unread postby Jryski » 14 September 2019, 21:30

I feel like I'd go through conversion therapy just to know what his victims felt like. As much as he is a victim himself, I believe things like this should be considered a major crime and everyone involved in perpetuating this shit needs to be brought to justice.
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Re: Pray the Gay Away

Unread postby Eryx » 15 September 2019, 06:47

They should be tried for the murder of all the teens who committed suicide after going to these camps, that's what's what.
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Re: Pray the Gay Away

Unread postby Jryski » 15 September 2019, 13:01

Eryx wrote:They should be tried for the murder of all the teens who committed suicide after going to these camps, that's what's what.

Exactly! If they truly believe that they are doing the Lord's work like they say they are, then they'd proudly and gladly accept their punishment especially if it's death. Send them to heaven like they are trying to make everyone else go. It's like helping them pass go so they can collect their two hundred before they have to go around the whole board. I'd say that's a win win situation.
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Re: Pray the Gay Away

Unread postby Eryx » 15 September 2019, 18:06

I agree! What kind of Christian wouldn't want to go to heaven early? That's why suicide isn't allowed, because people would be cheating the system all the time. We could help them and put the death penalty to good use. Lol.
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Re: Pray the Gay Away

Unread postby Jzone » 16 September 2019, 00:27

get out free.jpeg
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Re: Pray the Gay Away

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 16 September 2019, 21:36

So that’s what an indulgence looks like.
Blow: "Nowadays even Liam can release an album of his screechy vocals and it'll probably go #1..."
Ramzus: I can admit that I'm horny just about 24/7
homomorphism: I used to not think your name was deshay and that Erick was just being racist
Hunter: sometimes I think I was literally born to be a pornstar
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Re: Pray the Gay Away

Unread postby Jzone » 19 September 2019, 05:42

When I indulge it looks a helluva lot hotter than that. :devil:
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Re: Pray the Gay Away

Unread postby PandaBoo » 28 September 2019, 21:26

Jzone wrote:He contributed to a huge amount of shame, emotional anguish, and anti-scientific, homophobic policies and attitudes. I might feel differently if he spends the rest of his life trying to undo the damage.


You give him too much credit.

Individuals dealing with shame and emotional anguish need to take certain level of responsibility to maintain their own mental health and not rely on others. It's for their own good.

In terms of anti-LGBT policies and anti-LGBT attitudes, this man has hardly made a significant contribution as these issues were festering for centuries.

:keke:
Please note the message above was written by a troll who has since been banned.
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Re: Pray the Gay Away

Unread postby Jzone » 29 September 2019, 00:46

PandaBoo wrote:
Jzone wrote:He contributed to a huge amount of shame, emotional anguish, and anti-scientific, homophobic policies and attitudes. I might feel differently if he spends the rest of his life trying to undo the damage.


You give him too much credit.

Individuals dealing with shame and emotional anguish need to take certain level of responsibility to maintain their own mental health and not rely on others. It's for their own good.

In terms of anti-LGBT policies and anti-LGBT attitudes, this man has hardly made a significant contribution as these issues were festering for centuries.

:keke:

You are absolutely right, Boo. (Welcome to the forum, by the way.) Homophobic attitudes and policies would exist without this scumbag. He barely pushed the needle. For the individuals who were affected by his organization and actions, however, the impact was significant.
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Re: Pray the Gay Away

Unread postby kenzie_matt » 30 September 2019, 10:20

I'm quite sure that the reason he founded this organisation in the first place was due to self-hatred. The fact that he perpetuated the amount of pain and suffering is a travesty. Simply saying "sorry" won't undo all of the damage he did. Yes, some parents bought into it and took their children there, so they are also guilty - no sense in denying that. However, that does not diminish his role in all of this by any means.

Eryx wrote:They should be tried for the murder of all the teens who committed suicide after going to these camps, that's what's what.

Agreed! He (and his co-conspirators) had no problem in initiating all of this trauma. As such, they should have no problem in accepting the punishment befitting their crimes

<Puts soapbox away until further rant>
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