Russia & Ukraine

Discuss the news, current events, politics, etc.

Do you think Russia will invade?

Yes
6
43%
Probably yes
2
14%
Maybe
2
14%
Probably no
3
21%
No
1
7%
Don't know/care or know what this even asking about
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 14

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby PopTart » 25 February 2022, 16:19

I don't think that Russian scholars, authors, political thinkers and nationalists, believing Ukraine has neither right nor legitimacy, to want independance, comes as much of a revelation.

It's obvious in most conversations with such people.

But just because the Russians feel that way doesn't mean that Ukrainians feel the same way.

It doesn't surprise me, that a people with authoritarian, imperialist leanings, look to their cultural and territorial neighbours and find justification for why they should be subsumed and subjugate beneath the aegis of the greater (in this case) Russian state.

But I would think that Ukraine and its people have demonstrated quite clearly that they don't regard themselves as, little Russians or believe that they can only exercise autonomy under the watchful eye of Moscow. Indeed, it seems to me, that they vehemently reject those ideas.

I think the irony here, is that while many Russians might legitimately believe that Ukrainians and Russians are one people, this invasion, only cements the idea in the minds of Ukrainians, of an independant and clearly divisible Ukrainian national identity, one that is beset by and stands in opposition to, Moscow and Russia.

It was war that created the concept of the nation state and national identity, for both the English and the French, during the 14th and 15th centuries.

Russia is ensuring that in the long run, Ukraine will never be Russian, large or small.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby Marmaduke » 25 February 2022, 20:05

Having seen the sanctions - and knowing that; a. Nobody wants world war 3, and b. that nobody cares about Ukraine in and of itself - I think it’s pretty clear Russia will take what they want with very little resistance outside of the Ukrainian people.

Genuinely such an empty package of absolute dross. Russia threatens swift retribution to anyone that gets in its way and the best we can bring ourselves to do it tell them they can’t be in the Eurovision and Aeroflot can’t land in all its usual destinations until they stop being naughty.

It’s like we’ve seen Russia through the window of a Michelin-starred restaurant having whatever it wants, and in disgust at it’s gluttony have banged on the window and told them that they’re not invited to Nandos with us.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 25 February 2022, 20:22

Derek wrote:The reddit memes are incredibly cringe

Did you guys know that Putin is GAY? That he's a HOMOSEXUAL who loves PENISES? Owned

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So I figured out why this didn’t deter Russia. They didn’t use the biconditional connective “iff.” Sigh. If they had only taken a philosophy 101 class they’d have kept them at bay.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby acpro » 25 February 2022, 20:51

Putin tells Ukraine soldiers to lay down arms and go home. I've seen invaders say this to the other side a lot. But what they really should say is "go home, call this number, and sign up for employment with our army". It's like these guys have no idea that people need a paycheck. And for a lot of people their loyalties go to the highest bidder. I mean you won't get 100% but realistically Ukraine is not going to win this so I think it's a viable option for Ukrainian soldiers, if it was offered.

I have no idea. I've never taken over a country. It's probably way more complicated than this.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby PopTart » 25 February 2022, 21:42

Marmaduke wrote:Having seen the sanctions - and knowing that; a. Nobody wants world war 3, and b. that nobody cares about Ukraine in and of itself - I think it’s pretty clear Russia will take what they want with very little resistance outside of the Ukrainian people.

Genuinely such an empty package of absolute dross. Russia threatens swift retribution to anyone that gets in its way and the best we can bring ourselves to do it tell them they can’t be in the Eurovision and Aeroflot can’t land in all its usual destinations until they stop being naughty.

It’s like we’ve seen Russia through the window of a Michelin-starred restaurant having whatever it wants, and in disgust at it’s gluttony have banged on the window and told them that they’re not invited to Nandos with us.

Do you think that Nato should have just given Putin a written assurance that Ukraine would not be admitted into the alliance? It's clear no-one wants to go to bat for Ukraine, which is shameful, given the way Nato has dangled the prospect of their Nato membership before both Russia and Ukraine. I do think there is plenty of people across Europe who are more willing to see more affirmative action (they'd probably balk at war though)

But I'm not convinced it would have been enough. I don't think a guarantee woudl have been the end of it.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby pozzie » 25 February 2022, 22:05

Thanks for the quotes, Brenden. I have decided against the constant talk for news this time - I've found it a horrible time sink in the past, always waiting for some sort of new or useful information that would answer my questions/concerns, but never seems to come. I'm choosing to read different sources and really appreciate access provided by your quotations.

While my understanding of Russian history is rather cursory when compared to people who more actively study history, I had a hard time with equating a separate Ukraine with the concept of nationhood especially given the idea that Kiev is the 'birthplace' of the nation of the Rus. It's the cultural heartland of the Russian people (slavs) though clearly the early years of Russian history was divided into a bunch of smaller entities that eventually coalesced into the earliest Russian state. So I really struggled to find, let's call it, a separate Ukrainian ethnicity, say, like the Poles or Czechs who are still Slavs but 'west slavs' or whatever. I'm not sure that current claims made by Ukrainians of their "thousand year history" aren't more than a bit revisionist and there is clearly a tug-and-pull between Kiev and Moscow, not to forget the various ethnic factions within Ukraine. How different that is than say, the tug-of-war between left-leaning California and right-leaning Florida, is hard to say, but clearly we're not quite at a point were states have completely stopped identifying as "Americans" the way Ukrainians have tried to separate themselves from Russian-ness.

Also related to all this is what I believe was called "Heartland Theory" and it goes back at least a century, maybe two. What I remember there is whoever controls the breadbasket of Eurasia "the heartland" basically controls the world and it was important to Hitler's eastern landgrab (from the Soviets) that never quite panned out. While Germany has ceased to be expansionistic in a physical sense, I think this thinking still underpins the Europe vs Russia thinking. Could some in the Kremlin be worried a unifying Europe could control too much of the heartland, thereby putting Russia at a serious strategic disadvantage, one that was finally remedied during Stalinism with the final capitulation of the German state, it's division, and Russia's control of everything (that matters) east of the Iron Curtain? Granted, certain petrochemicals are probably more important now than wheat, but some of these foundational concepts still carry weight.

So what comes next? Plenty points to a single unified Russian state and even clearly Putin's most recent address to the Russian people can be seen to call for that. Or will they leave a sycophant/puppet in Kiev to govern a moderately independent entity similar to Belarus? Another possibility is that Ukraine is partitioned and some rump-state is left in the west that will continue to be Ukraine while the east is reabsorbed into the federation. At minimum I expect the promulgation of a 'new and improved' Ukrainian constitution that eliminates the national drive towards full integration with the European super state.

What the Ukrainians decide to do after the shooting stops is entirely different, but I highly doubt they will have a traditional military left by the time the Russians stop shooting. I'm also very doubtful there will be any NATO boots in Ukraine -- where's the petroleum, not to mention the risk of really standing up to a nuclear armed 'neighbor'? Ukraine's pretty much on it's own here, unlike, say a certain oil-wealthy ministate once saved from barbarous invaders somewhere south and east of this current mess.

The reading I've done related to these 'super uper duper sanctions' is they aren't expected to do much in the near-term but are geared at hobbling Russia going forward. I'm betting the Kremlin has laughed them off and prepared for such and worse. Three thoughts: 1) If the west cuts off access to tech, so what? Maybe the Russians have just been buying it while they can and plan to return to in-house development, reverse engineering, espionage, etc. It's not like this would be a new concept to former Soviets. 2) Could the west be holding off on cutting the financial pipeline (SWIFT and energy purchases) until warmer weather to buy it some time to prepare and not exacerbate inflation at home? 3) And what's with the Chinese and Putin's recent summit with Xi? What did they agree to in terms of tuning a blind eye to re-unificatory military excursions not to mention mutual aid when dealing with the West and sanctions.

Hate to say it, but Ukraine's near-term fate is sealed if not yet revealed. At some point I won't be surprised if there isn't a guerilla campaign against whatever comes next, but I'm not willing to even hope for a truly democratic state along the Dneiper after this and it's very clear that the Kremlin values 'stability' over 'democracy'. (Hint: They find us too changeable.) My real concern is just how far is Putin aiming west? We all clearly see the risk to the small Baltic states, but wasn't one of Putin's terms that NATO had to leave all former Warsaw Pact nations? Granted, I don't believe that's the exact phrasing and it creates an interesting dilemma given Germany's reunification, but does he really believe NATO and the EU will walk away from states between Poland and Romania? The Guardian is also reporting threats directed towards Finland and Sweden if they attempt to join NATO. So, just how much bigger is this mess going to get?
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby Marmaduke » 25 February 2022, 22:06

I think if NATO is happy to let Ukraine join, and Ukraine wants to join, then Ukraine needs to be fought for. We’re all too quick to emptily shout to anyone that will listen that we’re standing for something, hashtagging #standwithukraine on our photos, but only actually willing to do so in so far as we need do nothing more than stand and be seen to be standing. Standing for a thing is defending a thing, it’s resisting an attack on that thing, it’s doing so despite knowing you may fall. Stand for a thing. Don’t masturbate in the glow of your own empty virtue signalling.

The only way Russia will be repelled from Ukraine is through war. Nobody wants war, but war is required to achieve the goal. We either stand in defence of principle, or we don’t. And we won’t. So we should shut up, before we fuck things up more than we have already.

Do I think NATO will declare war? No. Do I think it should? Yes. If it doesn’t, I don’t know why we’re a member and I don’t know why anyone else would be either. It’s yet another empty bureaucracy. A place for politicians to push paper around and take money for achieving nothing. Abolish it or demand it act.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby Derek » 25 February 2022, 23:26

Ukraine wasn't a member of NATO because of exigencies which took into account the possibility of invasion. Whatever "principle" guided that decision was the same then as it is now. Ukraine wasn't worth pissing off Moscow.

I'm not sure if any kind of diplomatic solution is possible, but personally I do not want NATO to go to war (or to continue to exist tbh). I hope whatever sanctions will inevitably come are designed with the purpose of causing Putin to withdraw and not to enact regime change by targeting the Russian economy writ large, because that is a pissing contest we are bound to lose. I also hope our material support for Ukrainians takes the form of aid and relief rather than arming guerilla fighting, which is bound to spark ethnic violence within Ukraine and escalate the possibility of war outside it.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby PopTart » 26 February 2022, 07:34

Marmaduke wrote:I think if NATO is happy to let Ukraine join, and Ukraine wants to join, then Ukraine needs to be fought for. We’re all too quick to emptily shout to anyone that will listen that we’re standing for something, hashtagging #standwithukraine on our photos, but only actually willing to do so in so far as we need do nothing more than stand and be seen to be standing. Standing for a thing is defending a thing, it’s resisting an attack on that thing, it’s doing so despite knowing you may fall. Stand for a thing. Don’t masturbate in the glow of your own empty virtue signalling.

The only way Russia will be repelled from Ukraine is through war. Nobody wants war, but war is required to achieve the goal. We either stand in defence of principle, or we don’t. And we won’t. So we should shut up, before we fuck things up more than we have already.

Do I think NATO will declare war? No. Do I think it should? Yes. If it doesn’t, I don’t know why we’re a member and I don’t know why anyone else would be either. It’s yet another empty bureaucracy. A place for politicians to push paper around and take money for achieving nothing. Abolish it or demand it act.

Agreed.

As to Derek, I see value and purpose in Nato, principally, but as Marmaduke rightly points out, whatever that value or purpose might once have been, it's revealed to be hollow in the face of current inaction. If it hasn't the will to fulfill it's purpose, then it has no purpose and will crumble regardless. Though I bet it would be to the west's detriment.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby PopTart » 26 February 2022, 07:55

pozzie wrote:I had a hard time with equating a separate Ukraine with the concept of nationhood especially given the idea that Kiev is the 'birthplace' of the nation of the Rus. It's the cultural heartland of the Russian people (slavs) though clearly the early years of Russian history was divided into a bunch of smaller entities that eventually coalesced into the earliest Russian state. So I really struggled to find, let's call it, a separate Ukrainian ethnicity, say, like the Poles or Czechs who are still Slavs but 'west slavs' or whatever. I'm not sure that current claims made by Ukrainians of their "thousand year history" aren't more than a bit revisionist and there is clearly a tug-and-pull between Kiev and Moscow, not to forget the various ethnic factions within Ukraine.
In this, you think as Putin does.

Ukraine has spent a significant part of it's history not being part of a pan Russian superstate.

Indeed, the length of time it has been independant and seperate from Moscow, or other Russian states is greater than the entire history of the US independance from the British.

More than enough time for cultural divergence. I'm certain most Americans would balk at the idea that you ought to rejoin the homecountry. So too Ukrainians feel the same way.

Kievan Rus, was not Russia. It was an entirely different beast and while modern day Russia and Moscow like to think of themselves as the inheritors of that ancient patchwork nations legacy (more accurately collection of nations), they really aren't. In much the same way, the British Empire wasn't the inheritor of the Romans, as some imperialists once liked to fancy.

When Ukraine was significant (center of Kievan Rus) that state was highly decentralised. Moscow didn't even exist, the northern state of importance was Novgorod, which was different in government to then Ukraine and was wholey independant.

Ukraine has spent as much time separated from other Russian states as it has as part of the Soviet Union, it spent well over a century, being a semi autonomous part of the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth! It spent yet another century under the nominal rule of Tatars.

It is a testament to the manner in which the Soviet Union, managed to so successfully expunge an independant Ukrainian identity from recent memory, that so many today, feel that Ukrainians don't have a legitimate identity or history of their own.

It's how Putin and so many others think.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby pozzie » 26 February 2022, 08:30

Gee Blanche, I never knew you cared! :popcorn:
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby PopTart » 26 February 2022, 11:13

Excuse me Rose, have I given any indication at all that I care? :monocle:
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby Sullivan » 26 February 2022, 11:31

I don't see how one can claim that NATO's unwillingness to go to war over Ukraine makes it a hollow alliance, given that NATO's purpose is the collective defense of member states and Ukraine is thankfully not in NATO.

If Putin tried to invade a country that's actually a NATO member—the Baltic states, Poland, take your pick—do you really think he wouldn't be triggering World War III?
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby PopTart » 26 February 2022, 12:18

Sullivan wrote:I don't see how one can claim that NATO's unwillingness to go to war over Ukraine makes it a hollow alliance, given that NATO's purpose is the collective defense of member states and Ukraine is thankfully not in NATO.

If Putin tried to invade a country that's actually a NATO member—the Baltic states, Poland, take your pick—do you really think he wouldn't be triggering World War III?

No, I'm not convinced that it would. Because I think the Nato alliance has demonstrated, that it has no stomach for war.

Either your willing to send people off to die in foreign lands or your not. The difference between Ukraine and, let's say, Estonia is marginal. Estonia is in Nato.

Most people here and in the west generally, aren't willing to go fight in Ukraine, do really think they will be more willing to go fight or ask others to do so in their stead, simply because it's Estonia and Estonia is in Nato?

No, the same people will have the same reluctance and Putin and the West know it.

Nato is finished.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 26 February 2022, 13:24

PopTart wrote:Most people here and in the west generally, aren't willing to go fight in Ukraine, do really think they will be more willing to go fight or ask others to do so in their stead, simply because it's Estonia and Estonia is in Nato?

Well, it depends. How much oil can we secure from Estonia? Asking for a friend.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby Marmaduke » 26 February 2022, 13:28

Sullivan wrote:I don't see how one can claim that NATO's unwillingness to go to war over Ukraine makes it a hollow alliance, given that NATO's purpose is the collective defense of member states and Ukraine is thankfully not in NATO.

If Putin tried to invade a country that's actually a NATO member—the Baltic states, Poland, take your pick—do you really think he wouldn't be triggering World War III?

How can an alliance not be seen as hollow when it’s opponents dictate it’s membership? When even the vague prospect of a state seeking membership leads to that state being occupied and overthrown with little more than a disapproving look and revoked invite to the World Cup?

Financial sanctions against individuals and organisations that we KNOW don’t hold any significant portion of their wealth in their name or within any affected financial structure? Rescinded invitations and commercial flight bans on SOME - not even all - airlines? What the fuck is that if not a concession that NATO is already powerless act?

Ukraine is, I’m sure, grateful for our hashtags. Once we share it enough, Russia will just pack up and go home.

If it doesn’t stop here, where does it? Will we care more when it’s Belarus or Moldova on Russia’s relocated doorstep?
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby PopTart » 26 February 2022, 14:09

poolerboy0077 wrote:
PopTart wrote:Most people here and in the west generally, aren't willing to go fight in Ukraine, do really think they will be more willing to go fight or ask others to do so in their stead, simply because it's Estonia and Estonia is in Nato?

Well, it depends. How much oil can we secure from Estonia? Asking for a friend.

That's different. It's easy to go to war with a clearly inferior opponent, when there is a tangible benefit that will result, at minimal cost to ones life. That isn't war, that's military adventurism.

People protested the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan sure, but they didn't care much. There were bigger protests for climate change and BLM. Why? Because it didn't impact them. It was happening to other people, "over there" not "over here" and to us.

The prospect of war with a nuclear power and military equal, like Russia, rightly frightens people. Suddenly, the prospect of war isn't just distasteful. It's no longer a political issue. It becomes an existential one. It's no longer a cerebral exercise for those of us sat at home "talking" about it. When people confront the reality, that they might have to do something, go to war, be conscripted, face the threat of nuclear catastrophe, put themselves at risk, face potential hardship or death. Well, suddenly everyone falls silent.

Suddenly, Nato seems a concern, rather than an assurance. It doesn't promise peace, it promises a war they don't want.

Marmaduke wrote:Financial sanctions against individuals and organisations that we KNOW don’t hold any significant portion of their wealth in their name or within any affected financial structure? Rescinded invitations and commercial flight bans on SOME - not even all - airlines? What the fuck is that if not a concession that NATO is already powerless act?

:werd:

Marmaduke wrote:If it doesn’t stop here, where does it? Will we care more when it’s Belarus or Moldova on Russia’s relocated doorstep?

Exactly. It wont stop here. Russians see it as a virtue, to expand their borders. They aren't westerners and they don't hold the same values.

Putin has rightly identified that the west is without conviction. It won't stand up and push back and so it will continue to push forward.

Once other countries see that the West is not going to act, how long before the likes of say, China, decide it's time to take back Taiwan? Declare war on Japan over territorial disputes? Or Mongolia, India etc.

This fire will spread.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby Derek » 26 February 2022, 19:18

PopTart wrote:As to Derek, I see value and purpose in Nato, principally, but as Marmaduke rightly points out, whatever that value or purpose might once have been, it's revealed to be hollow in the face of current inaction. If it hasn't the will to fulfill it's purpose, then it has no purpose and will crumble regardless. Though I bet it would be to the west's detriment.

Its purpose was to create an alliance that could check the expansion of communism from the Soviet Union. Let me ask, why wasn't it dissolved in 1990? In regard to Ukraine specifically, why did it negotiate nuclear disarmament in 1994? And why didn't it accept Ukraine as a member in 2014, even as the US sold it weapons? The answer I'm fishing for is that NATO is an extension of the political will of its member states - the US in particular - and defending the sovereignty of slavic states was never its purpose. Denouncing NATO as having failed seems to me to betray a lack of understanding of its history.

PopTart wrote:Either your willing to send people off to die in foreign lands or your not. The difference between Ukraine and, let's say, Estonia is marginal. Estonia is in Nato.

Most people here and in the west generally, aren't willing to go fight in Ukraine, do really think they will be more willing to go fight or ask others to do so in their stead, simply because it's Estonia and Estonia is in Nato?

The fact that one of these countries is part of a military alliance and the other is not is, in fact, a huge difference, and not one that's just a quirk of circumstance. Ukraine was never admitted to NATO because Ukraine was never sufficiently aligned with NATO's goals.

Marmaduke wrote:If it doesn’t stop here, where does it? Will we care more when it’s Belarus or Moldova on Russia’s relocated doorstep?

I don't think Russia would bother invading Belarus, and Moldova at best represents a fevered stretch goal in the minds of Russian expansionists. Those are the two options - if Russia invaded Romania, Poland, Finland, or the Baltics, we would care a great deal. These are lines in the sand we drew a long time ago. You can't point point at the countries that were already discarded by Western interests and extrapolate that all of Europe is under threat.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby pozzie » 26 February 2022, 19:49

Not sure what China would have to gain by invading Japan, but I'd sure hate to be Taiwanese. Would China invade Vietnam or the Philippines over the Spratlys? Never given it much thought. Guess it's possible; just not quite sure the CCP's central leadership is there yet.

My memory of protests at the start of both Iraqi Wars is quite different - I had never seen anything like it. Got caught in downtown traffic literally for hours because of a protest march against the first Iraqi Invasion and that was a relatively popular war. And it seems painfully clear, to me at least, that most NATO nations were only too ready to get into it when a strategic resource was at stake, but if we look at something like the various Balkan wars of the 90s, it's also quite clear that NATO can really drag its boots when it's a lot of innocent civilians dying day in and day out.

However, if Russia attacks an actual NATO ally, we will have our 'shit or get off the pot' moment: I think Biden's more of a hawk than people generally think/hope/believe. But we're entering into primary season for the November congressional midterms -- and here's another fair criticism of democracy -- how will this play for the voters? This is a harder issue for Rs to deal with since they are currently two divergent impulses (like the Ds) to simultaneously appear "strong" while also now being against those pesky foreign interventions that are more complex (and longer lasting) than say snatching a strongman who no longer does what he's told from a Central American state or ousting commies from a Caribbean backwater where no one actually goes on vacation. Military adventurism indeed!

Haven't read the news yet today so don't know where things stand and also need to do more reading on Ukrainian history this weekend (though I'm fearful of revisionism "on both sides!"
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby PopTart » 26 February 2022, 19:56

Derek wrote:Its purpose was to create an alliance that could check the expansion of communism from the Soviet Union. Let me ask, why wasn't it dissolved in 1990? In regard to Ukraine specifically, why did it negotiate nuclear disarmament in 1994? And why didn't it accept Ukraine as a member in 2014, even as the US sold it weapons? The answer I'm fishing for is that NATO is an extension of the political will of its member states - the US in particular - and defending the sovereignty of slavic states was never its purpose. Denouncing NATO as having failed seems to me to betray a lack of understanding of its history.
That was it's original purpose, yes, but from that, it became an alliance of defense. Ukraine was encouraged to hand over it's nuclear arsenal, as Russia was very much not in favour of Ukraine maintaining that arsenal (gee, I wonder why that might have been?) It was the first concession by Nato towards Russia and there have been others.

I'm sorry to say, you suffer from America-syndrome on this subject. It's not all about you. Despite the American ethos to the contrary.

Derek wrote:The fact that one of these countries is part of a military alliance and the other is not is, in fact, a huge difference, and not one that's just a quirk of circumstance. Ukraine was never admitted to NATO because Ukraine was never sufficiently aligned with NATO's goals.
Yes, I know there is a technical distinction. But what I speak of, goes to the heart of what matters most for democratic nations looking at the prospect of going to war.

Explain to me in clear terms, what difference does it make to people on the streets of the US, UK, France etc? An international agreement, that they had no hand in authoring? If they aren't willing to go die in the streets of Kyiv, what makes you think, they are willing to go die on the streets of Talinn?

Derek wrote:
Marmaduke wrote:If it doesn’t stop here, where does it? Will we care more when it’s Belarus or Moldova on Russia’s relocated doorstep?

I don't think Russia would bother invading Belarus, and Moldova at best represents a fevered stretch goal in the minds of Russian expansionists. Those are the two options - if Russia invaded Romania, Poland, Finland, or the Baltics, we would care a great deal. These are lines in the sand we drew a long time ago. You can't point point at the countries that were already discarded by Western interests and extrapolate that all of Europe is under threat.
I disagree. I don't think Russia will stop there. I don't think that Russia thinks much of Nato threats.

And why should it?

The Western alliance couldn't stomach the necassery, figthing desert tribesmen in Afghanistan. What makes anyone think that the west has the political will to fight a far deadlier war in Europe with a resurgent and belligerent Russia? :lol:
Last edited by PopTart on 26 February 2022, 20:04, edited 1 time in total.
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