Russia & Ukraine

Discuss the news, current events, politics, etc.

Do you think Russia will invade?

Yes
7
47%
Probably yes
2
13%
Maybe
2
13%
Probably no
3
20%
No
1
7%
Don't know/care or know what this even asking about
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 15

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby Brenden » 2 March 2022, 15:53

erti wrote:most Russians do not support what Putin is doing.

There is no evidence for this claim, which is practically unverifiable.

Every day Russians tacitly sign a social contract with Putin and his government.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby Derek » 2 March 2022, 19:10

Marmaduke wrote:Ukraine sees Russia largely as the vestige of the Soviet Union which forced it to shore up the collectivised agriculture of the USSR and politically directed a famine which killed millions of people and then blamed them for their own deaths.

Short anecdote, I knew a woman who grew up in Odessa, Ukraine before her family emigrated in the 1970s due to antisemitism. I asked her about the famine once, and she'd never even heard of it.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby pozzie » 2 March 2022, 21:15

Derek wrote:
Marmaduke wrote:Ukraine sees Russia largely as the vestige of the Soviet Union which forced it to shore up the collectivised agriculture of the USSR and politically directed a famine which killed millions of people and then blamed them for their own deaths.

Short anecdote, I knew a woman who grew up in Odessa, Ukraine before her family emigrated in the 1970s due to antisemitism. I asked her about the famine once, and she'd never even heard of it.


not sure what that proves - I went to high school in Roswell (yes, that Roswell) and had never heard of the infamous incident until I saw a book on someone's shelf in a remote outpost in southern Africa. Granted, I left Roswell before folks got the idea to capitalize on the whole thing. There was no alien museum, no alien festival, no alien eyes on street lamps. No, the only thing I remember about space was the remembrance of Robert H Goddard's rocketry lab and field experiments which were done in the area.

On bigger issues, we know that history is whitewashed. I wouldn't doubt that was the case for the woman from Odessa. I don't imagine that they learned much of that kind of history during the glorious days of Khrushchev and Brezhnev. It's much like how the Chinese try to stamp out any mention of the Tiananmen Massacre and how the two sides are still fighting on which side is to blame for Katyn Massacre.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby Derek » 2 March 2022, 23:59

pozzie wrote:
Derek wrote:
Marmaduke wrote:Ukraine sees Russia largely as the vestige of the Soviet Union which forced it to shore up the collectivised agriculture of the USSR and politically directed a famine which killed millions of people and then blamed them for their own deaths.

Short anecdote, I knew a woman who grew up in Odessa, Ukraine before her family emigrated in the 1970s due to antisemitism. I asked her about the famine once, and she'd never even heard of it.


not sure what that proves - I went to high school in Roswell (yes, that Roswell) and had never heard of the infamous incident until I saw a book on someone's shelf in a remote outpost in southern Africa. Granted, I left Roswell before folks got the idea to capitalize on the whole thing. There was no alien museum, no alien festival, no alien eyes on street lamps. No, the only thing I remember about space was the remembrance of Robert H Goddard's rocketry lab and field experiments which were done in the area.

On bigger issues, we know that history is whitewashed. I wouldn't doubt that was the case for the woman from Odessa. I don't imagine that they learned much of that kind of history during the glorious days of Khrushchev and Brezhnev. It's much like how the Chinese try to stamp out any mention of the Tiananmen Massacre and how the two sides are still fighting on which side is to blame for Katyn Massacre.

My mom grew up in Roswell and never heard anything about aliens until the 80s. That's not a great counterexample because that actually is a case of something being entirely made up after the fact.

My point isn't that the famine didn't happen, but that we might not understand what axes are actually being grinded.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby pozzie » 3 March 2022, 00:21

You make a fair point -- it is always difficult to know what's going on in someone else's mind. Even if they tell you, they may not be candid.

However, I've read your response and Marmie's post quoted above and I'm not really certain where that discussion was really going. I feel like you both were making a point and yet all I'm looking at is the abyss.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 3 March 2022, 03:34

Derek wrote:My point isn't that the famine didn't happen, but that we might not understand what axes are actually being grinded.

It’s why I always stay quiet when people say “Hitler did nothing wrong.”
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby Derek » 3 March 2022, 03:36

I thought it was because you didn't want to risk outing yourself as a faggot in the wrong company.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 3 March 2022, 03:59

Derek wrote:I thought it was because you didn't want to risk outing yourself as a faggot in the wrong company.

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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby Subra » 3 March 2022, 18:26

Brenden wrote:
erti wrote:most Russians do not support what Putin is doing.

There is no evidence for this claim, which is practically unverifiable.

Every day Russians tacitly sign a social contract with Putin and his government.


Pretty bad take.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby PopTart » 3 March 2022, 18:39

Subra wrote:
Brenden wrote:
erti wrote:most Russians do not support what Putin is doing.

There is no evidence for this claim, which is practically unverifiable.

Every day Russians tacitly sign a social contract with Putin and his government.


Pretty bad take.

I have seen some evidence of Russian disaffection with the war, but for now, it seems rather muted.

I wonder if that's because Russians, generally aren't very good at taking a stand against their own government or because people there are genuinely divided over the whole affair and don't know what to do.

I did see a report of a little old lady with a placard being carted away. And a news piece suggesting that children had been detained for placing flowers on a Ukrainian monument. Who knows if that's true, but it wouldn't surprise me, to learn that it was.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby Derek » 3 March 2022, 19:13

The English-speaking internet is saturated with propaganda right now. Russia could be winning 9/10 battles and we wouldn't even hear about it. It's all stories about Ukrainian soldiers rescuing cats from trees and outright bullshit like the "Ghost of Kiev". I've heard about protests in Russia, but I know we're only getting one side of the story.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby pozzie » 3 March 2022, 19:41

Yeah, I'm really skeptical of anything specific, especially stories of Russian troops bayonetting babies for barbeque or garroting grannies gut garrison. Specifics are really hard to verify.

But two things about what might or might not be happening inside Russia:

1) I think we have fairly good evidence that the Kremlin has tried to control information inside the country. They have basically said as much fairly publicly and different instances of this I read come from different sources and all talk about this one concept.

2) However, tech savvy is high in at least a segment of the population and they are probably fairly adept at getting around the Iron Firewall to get news and information from outside sources. I just expect this to be a small minority, but likely the same extended circles of those doing the protesting.

Had an interesting online chat many months ago with a guy on another forum who lives in St Pete and is anything but pro-Kremlin. Now all I have to go on is one person's word, but, for example, he said that many people he knew weren't willing to get the Russian made Covid vaccines because of their low trust in the government.

Russians are also rumored to have learned to 'understand' government information -- when the government says X, they mean not X or maybe Y -- though I've no sense if this was just a skill employed during Soviet times or if it has survived in some manner to our current situation.

So it's probably safe to assume that 1) there is probably great variation in people's trust of official information and 2) some are not buying the party line. But is this 2% or 20%? That's harder to answer.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby PopTart » 3 March 2022, 22:00

Propaganda or not, the Ukrainians have done well to hold the Russian army off so far.

I've also seen plenty of actual footage, from actual Ukrainians, civilians at that, confronting actual Russian military personnel, telling them to go home, they weren't invited and aren't welcome.

One man pulled over next to a Russian armour convoy, that had run out of fuel and asked if they would like a tow back to the Border. That takes balls.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 4 March 2022, 04:13

Not sure if this is the appropriate thread to talk about this but have you guys seen the porn series Gay War Games? It’s about Russian — at least I think they’re Russian — military troops kidnapping guys (prisoners of war?) and sodomizing them. I wonder if Russian porn is having a boom or bust moment due to this invasion.

Derek wrote:The English-speaking internet is saturated with propaganda right now. Russia could be winning 9/10 battles and we wouldn't even hear about it. It's all stories about Ukrainian soldiers rescuing cats from trees and outright bullshit like the "Ghost of Kiev". I've heard about protests in Russia, but I know we're only getting one side of the story.

It’s interesting how despite having “independent” media and living in liberal democracies, we’ve all come together and assumed the role of autocracies by airing propaganda. The swift coordination is fascinating.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby asianduck888 » 6 March 2022, 16:54

My country been colonialized for 350 years by many country in Europe and Japan. Portuguese, Netherland, United Kingdom, and Japan. even my grand parents go to war for our freedom from those country who did many human right violation. during my lifetime I only could met my grandma and I listen to all her story how brutal those country did in the past.

after our independence, its written in our constitutional that we against war to build world peace, and our founder keep our country neutral not to take sides of west and east. I am against the war in Ukraine and I wish it will end soon.

those who win the war become a hero, and the loser become nothing
I want to say there is double standard happen here, I will leave this video.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby Derek » 7 March 2022, 21:45

Hey Erick what do you think about this twink Russian gymnast who's facing disciplinary action for displaying support for invading Ukraine during a competition?

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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 9 March 2022, 13:34

I definitely agree there should be punishment, I just disagree with the method. :shifty:

Also, how does it feel to share the same opinions as Greg Gutfeld? :keke:

Edit: I stupidly tried embedding a link the way you would on Reddit. :facepalm:
Last edited by poolerboy0077 on 9 March 2022, 21:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby Derek » 9 March 2022, 20:29

Fine, I guess.

I got into arguments with people on reddit about sanctions. Basically whether it's acceptable logic that you punish an entire people for what their government does. I'd argue that it's not moral or effective.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby pozzie » 9 March 2022, 21:19

I tend to land with Derek on this one. How long have sanctions been in place against Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, and of course, the mother of all useless sanction regimes, Cuba? And what have they changed? However, if sanctions can be targeted to primarily effect decision makers and limit their ability to promulgate destruction, I'm more interested. If the leadership team decides to raise taxes and shift local production from basic needs that can't be purchased from outside the state because of sanctions to destructive resources, that's on them.

Besides sanctions, I'd love someone to provide some options that didn't involve more countries getting involved in active conflicts or simply rolling over and accepting the bad behavior of any regime, be it autocratic, totalitarian, or some level of democratic. (I would have understood if some countries had imposed sanctions on the US and UK for the invasions that overthrew Saddam or Ghaddafi, much as I disliked them as individual leaders.)

As for some gymnast, I don't know enough about it, but am guessing this is one reason teams are disinvited to participate when their governments behave really badly - it can provide a stage to spout whatever. Personally I'd prefer to keep such, be it pro-invader or pro-defender, off the medal stand and away from the cameras, but allow people to say whatever they want in 'private' media away from the venue.
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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postby PopTart » 10 March 2022, 19:13

I don't like this drive to have western living Russians publicly denounce Russia's foreign policy or face censure.

There was some Russian composer in Germany who refused to take a stance on the matter either way and was fired as a consequence. When did peoples jobs and careers become fair game for having the wrong political views? (or refusing to voice them?) When did institutions and governments get into the business of compelling speech of any variety? I thought Russia was the authoritarian regime here?
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