Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

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Re: Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

Unread postby Kai » 27 June 2015, 12:23

Such a stupid move... Forcing people to break their religion under the guise of law. Yeah, what could go wrong? The law should be "If you want to marry gays, then do it, if not, then don't". I'm just waiting to see how the Muslim mosques are going to handle this. Fucking Christ....
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Re: Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

Unread postby Derek » 27 June 2015, 13:07

Kai wrote:Such a stupid move... Forcing people to break their religion under the guise of law. Yeah, what could go wrong? The law should be "If you want to marry gays, then do it, if not, then don't". I'm just waiting to see how the Muslim mosques are going to handle this. Fucking Christ....

The ruling does not address the question of whether private religious institutions must perform marriages. My guess is that the matter will reach superior court in time, but all the ruling says is that it's not constitutional for states to ban gay marriage.

But way to try to be a contrary buzzkill.
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Re: Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

Unread postby Ericb91 » 27 June 2015, 15:56

Kai wrote:Such a stupid move... Forcing people to break their religion under the guise of law. Yeah, what could go wrong? The law should be "If you want to marry gays, then do it, if not, then don't". I'm just waiting to see how the Muslim mosques are going to handle this. Fucking Christ....

What?

Churches won't be forced to marry anyone, they're not even forced to marry interracial couples, they have complete control over who they marry.
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Re: Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

Unread postby lightnight » 27 June 2015, 16:13

yeah I don't think muslim gay people would go to a mosque to get gay married just yet. But good thing is, if any mosque's administration considers doing it in the future, at least they will be protected by law anywhere in the US (even if demonized by their peers, like this guy:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... -imam.html)

And I think that's the whole point about marriage or any kind of equality rights. Providing means for integrating a minority into the mainstream. It's not like we all want to get married right now. It's not like people are going to stop being homophobic from today. Most of us are happy even though we don't know many american queer persons to congratulate personally just because their country will now recognize them as less of 'other' people.

That deserves celebration.
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Re: Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 27 June 2015, 16:36

This decision has left thousands of people working as campaigners for marriage equality unemployed. I hope all of you can live with yourselves.
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Re: Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

Unread postby Odd » 27 June 2015, 18:34

poolerboy0077 wrote:This decision has left thousands of people working as campaigners for marriage equality unemployed. I hope all of you can live with yourselves.

Pretty sure a bunch of new opportunities in wedding planning and divorce law just opened up though. :P
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Re: Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 27 June 2015, 19:22

Odd wrote:
poolerboy0077 wrote:This decision has left thousands of people working as campaigners for marriage equality unemployed. I hope all of you can live with yourselves.

Pretty sure a bunch of new opportunities in wedding planning and divorce law just opened up though. :P

Come now, you know better than to invoke the well-known economic fallacy of broken windows! :oface:
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Re: Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

Unread postby Derek » 27 June 2015, 19:36

poolerboy0077 wrote:Come now, you know better than to invoke the well-known economic fallacy of broken windows! :oface:

It's about time Bastiat got proper shrift in the discussion about gay marriage.
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Re: Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 27 June 2015, 21:39

lol
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Re: Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

Unread postby Kai » 28 June 2015, 02:23

Hm, if the state gives money to whatever church does the marrying, then it should be made to marry whomever. But if it's private...just leave them alone.
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Re: Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

Unread postby Hunter » 28 June 2015, 04:16

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... tless.html

My favorite essay on this so far. So wonderfully written, unlike the persnickety old crab Scalia.
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Re: Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 28 June 2015, 05:13

Hunter wrote:http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... tless.html

My favorite essay on this so far. So wonderfully written, unlike the persnickety old crab Scalia.

Judge Posner is always a delight to read but I do take issue with a point he raised, even if minor:

      Justice Samuel Alito's dissent, to which I turn briefly, ascribes to the states that want to forbid same-sex marriage the desire "to encourage potentially procreative conduct to take place within a lasting unit that has long been thought to provide the best atmosphere for raising children. They thus argue that there are reasonable secular grounds for restricting marriage to opposite-sex couples." That can’t be right. States that forbid same-sex marriage do not do so in an effort to encourage gays and lesbians to marry people of the opposite sex and thereby procreate. The nation is not suffering from a shortage of children. Sterile people are not forbidden to marry, though by definition they do not procreate. There is no greater reason to forbid gay marriage, which is actually good for children by making the children adopted by gay couples (and there are a great many such children), better off emotionally and fiscally.

That's technically not the view that was advanced by opponents either in this case or of NOM. The idea is this. The state has a vested interest in encouraging fathers to be with their biological children. Marriage is a social and legal institution in which the spouses are held accountable, at least in theory, to their vows and commitments to the benefit of their offspring to be raised in a stable household with both their biological parents -- what is considered the optimal environment. By allowing gay marriage, they argue that this takes us away from viewing marriage for this reason and instead replaces it with the union of two equals for purposes of romantic love. Ultimately this is an empirical question and I think their fears are both unfounded and silly, especially in light of the glaring exceptions that were in existence even prior to any gay marriages made available in the nation. I think that argument is weak, and certainly not one animating most opponents in the country, but it's not the caricature that Posner described above. I'm all for positive social results but I feel we have a responsibility to address the arguments as they are actually advanced.
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Re: Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

Unread postby Descuff » 28 June 2015, 06:02

Salomé wrote:Truly wonderful. There is of course still a lot of work to be done, but today is no day for cynicism. A massive victory. :heart:

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I LOVE this gif.
I wonder how many people know this is down here
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Re: Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

Unread postby Hunter » 28 June 2015, 06:03

I can't speak to what the lawyers of Obergefell argued, but that aforementioned caricature is a genuine argument that has indeed popped up in these types of cases. He struck down a ban in Indiana, and I listened to the audio of the lawyer; he quite literally tried (well, stammered) his way through that argument and Posner shot him down in a pretty amusing fashion.

Either way, Posner is the brilliant legal mind and writer that Scalia wishes he was. Though I think Slant assembled quite the crew of writers, they've done a good job of covering Obergefell.
Last edited by Hunter on 28 June 2015, 06:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

Unread postby Descuff » 28 June 2015, 06:04

poolerboy0077 wrote:This decision has left thousands of people working as campaigners for marriage equality unemployed. I hope all of you can live with yourselves.


Make them focus on the rest of the LGBT+ that we been leaving out.
I wonder how many people know this is down here
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Re: Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

Unread postby Iago » 28 June 2015, 09:58

One thing I don't get (having only read news articles and not the actual opinions) is how all the conservative justices voted no and all the liberal ones voted yes. Is that a co-incidence, or is the language of the relevant parts of the Constitution vague enough to permit legal judgement to mesh with social view?
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Re: Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

Unread postby Brenden » 28 June 2015, 10:43

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Re: Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

Unread postby Sherri » 28 June 2015, 13:50

poolerboy0077 wrote:This decision has left thousands of people working as campaigners for marriage equality unemployed. I hope all of you can live with yourselves.


Eh, there is still plenty to fight for. State laws are still so lacking that many of the places with newfound marriage equality do not also enjoy anti-discrimination laws that mark sexual orientation as a protected aspect for employment and housing. Georgia is this way. So when all of these people who've been waiting so long do decide to get married, their employers can choose to fire them rather than give their spouses benefits, and their landlords can decide to evict them.
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Re: Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

Unread postby Brenden » 28 June 2015, 14:06

Sherri wrote:
poolerboy0077 wrote:This decision has left thousands of people working as campaigners for marriage equality unemployed. I hope all of you can live with yourselves.

Eh, there is still plenty to fight for. State laws are still so lacking that many of the places with newfound marriage equality do not also enjoy anti-discrimination laws that mark sexual orientation as a protected aspect for employment and housing. Georgia is this way. So when all of these people who've been waiting so long do decide to get married, their employers can choose to fire them rather than give their spouses benefits, and their landlords can decide to evict them.

And when these incidents come to light, it will only push public opinion further in our favour and lead to further progress for equality.
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Re: Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage nation-wide

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 28 June 2015, 14:10

Sherri wrote:
poolerboy0077 wrote:This decision has left thousands of people working as campaigners for marriage equality unemployed. I hope all of you can live with yourselves.


Eh, there is still plenty to fight for. State laws are still so lacking that many of the places with newfound marriage equality do not also enjoy anti-discrimination laws that mark sexual orientation as a protected aspect for employment and housing. Georgia is this way. So when all of these people who've been waiting so long do decide to get married, their employers can choose to fire them rather than give their spouses benefits, and their landlords can decide to evict them.

Sherri, please. We have a gay president. I'm pretty sure all homophobia has been put to rest.

Also...

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