The L / G / B / T divide

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The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby Eryx » 3 April 2021, 16:41

Okay, so let me try to explain the title. I remember being 18 and finally learning more about Feminism. First, I thought it was a weird concept, because how are you going to call "Feminism" something that is seeking equality? I began reading about the struggles, the advances and the unfair advantages that happened throughout the years. I began considering myself a feminist and frequented many different feminist groups. We discussed everything, including LGBT issues and women, and everyone felt welcome.

At some point, the whole thing about me not being in the position to talk about women issues started to arise. More and more, male participants could not voice their opinions at all, even if they were agreeing, and people were becoming more aggressive regarding that. I decided to leave and say good bye to everyone that was dear to me on a group I participated more on, a few closer friends came to ask me to calm down and think through things a little more, but eventually I left and most comments there were "See you never / Was I supposed to care? / Better late than never" etc.

So I decided that I would focus on gay issues more and let everyone do their own thing. I kept doing that and being low-key a supporter of women and feminism, called myself an ally, I was sort of there. But that was still a problem, because to some I needed to engage more, and to some I shouldn't even be called an ally, but just a man. "Well, okay, then, I'm not going to participate at all." And that's what I decided to do. Of course I still get angry at unfair wages, domestic abuse and abortion laws, but I'm not being vocal about it, the most I do is vote.

Now, taking care of my LGBT things, I understood the struggle of Lesbians. They were always the second class citizen of the LGBT country. Gay men were more focused on, health measures were put into place for us, we were the highlighted group of the bunch. They still faced a lot of issues regarding abuse and harassment, their points of view and stereotypes were never adequately addressed and they didn't feel reciprocity from gay men when it came to fighting their fight.

Eventually, so many lesbian friends and acquaintances told me to fuck off and let them do their thing that I abandoned the Lesbian fight completely. I just don't have the energy anymore. I don't ask, I don't care, and I barely have any lesbian friends now. The ones that I do have, it's typically people that want to shoot the shit rather than discussing the social fabric.

Now, there's a new frontier: transexuals. Honestly, I am going to call you whatever you want me to call you. I don't think your gender, your clothes or your upbringing should affect your chance at getting jobs, relationships or happiness. I don't care about the bathroom rules or the ID card assinging you as "Male," "Female" or "Non-binary." I really wish you all the equality and free treatment that you need.

What is bothering me to no end is the fact that activists are now saying I am under the obligation to treat a trans man without a penis the same way in my relationships as someone who was assigned as male at birth. I am not forced to do that. And it's being done indiscriminately to Lesbian girls and to bottom twinks who think they owe the trans community that even though they're basically being abused.

There was some joke on Reddit about French being a gendered language and someone saying "My boyfriend is really cute!" before someone made fun of him saying "You mistook the gender! haha!" and the guy being like "No, that's what I meant." Harmless joke, but the comments were all about gendered languages being "ew," "outdated" and "unnecessary." All of that ignoring the fact that ironically, English, the genderless future, has people calling their cars a girl. I wonder if giving gender to words is something natural.

Anyway, I'm drawing the line here. I'm not going to support trans people openly at all anymore. I'm done. Yeah, I'm voting for people who will defend you, advocate for you, give you the equality you deserve. But I'm not pushing for this gender bullshit and I'm not going to be ashamed of my masculinity, my personality, because somehow it's bad and part of the problem of some system. That's a stretch, let's all be honest. It's people who have other psychological issues that need to be addressed rather than being pampered.

These people have become aggressive and it's not just dialogue anymore. Dialogue would require the other side being able to talk.

There's nowhere else I can vent about this, so I'm sorry for doing it here, but that's all I wanted to say. And honestly, after you get a dog, an apartament, a decent job and someone who cares for you without the drama, all that crap looks too small anyway.
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby René » 3 April 2021, 18:17

I feel you, and I imagine there are lots of people who feel similarly but don't feel like they can speak up because it's considered politically incorrect and they'll be branded bigots.

I will add that I'm happy to be grouped with lesbians and bisexuals in an acronym but I've never felt I have much in common with transsexuals. I'd rather be called gay or LGB/GLB than LGBT or LGBTQI+ or whatever it is now. :P

Oh, and don't get me started on queer. Queer means strange/odd to me and I have no wish to be associated with that term.
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby erti » 3 April 2021, 18:39

I try to be open minded... I’m bisexual and even with the lgbt community bisexual are viewed as sluts and down for a threesome... I can’t speak for all the bisexuals but I would rather have all the support I need and not just form people of similar sexual orientation.
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby Severelius » 3 April 2021, 18:55

I fully admit the issues associated with trans people are not something that enters my life on any form of regular basis so I've not got any deep thoughts on the subject outside of "I don't really mind, if you want to be referred to a certain way I'm not going to be the prick who goes out of my way not to because doing so literally costs me nothing to be nice to you about it."

I've only ever known one trans person in my actual life and had no problems with her at all. To be honest I'll never get my head around the "don't associate us with them" mentality that a lot of LGB people feel towards the T part of the acronym. I'll happily call myself part of the LGBT community, or LGBTQ, or LGBTQ+ or whatever else.

René wrote:Oh, and don't get me started on queer. Queer means strange/odd to me and I have no wish to be associated with that term.

See this is interesting because I'm very much the opposite. I've found myself kind of loving the word queer and using it for myself a lot. In my head it's just a catch-all term for anyone who's not just straight-up cisgender hetero so it's a nice inclusive phrase, and reclaiming it from homophobic arseholes is always a plus because fuck them.
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby Derek » 3 April 2021, 18:56

This has never seemed that difficult to me. LGBT isn't a scientific term, it's a political one, and there's a great deal of overlap in how those groups are perceived and treated, especially in past decades. I'm perfectly happy expressing solidarity with trans people, and refusing to do so now just because gay people's political goals have largely been fulfilled strikes me as selfish.

As for people being... bullied?... into dating trans people, I haven't seen an example of that happening that wasn't, like, a faked twitter screenshot. Based on everything I've seen and experienced, people are more likely to delude themselves into believing this is an actual problem, than it actually being a problem.
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby Marmaduke » 3 April 2021, 20:35

On the topic of the word “queer”, I’ll admit that I used to be quite opposed to it. I rolled out the “it means strange and I don’t want to label myself that” trolley and attempted to convince anyone that approached it to think the same. However, I find myself more minded to the view that it is somewhat the reclaimed word of our community.

I’ve always been of the opinion that sexuality - as with most aspects of human nature and behaviour - is an infinite spectrum within which anyone can fall anywhere. It doesn’t strike me at all as odd that out of 7 billion people, some people may feel themselves to fall into a place on that spectrum that doesn’t feel adequately aligned with being gay, straight or bisexual.

Do what makes you happy, let other people make the accommodations they need to in order to reconcile that. If gay, bisexual or straight aren’t labels that you feel fairly describe you, by all means use queer. I describe myself as gay. Do I exclusively find people of the same gender attractive? No. Could I imagine a future where I was in a relationship with someone not of the same gender? Absolutely. Would I ever describe myself as bisexual? No. I don’t feel that it fairly describes me and over generalises a nuance of my nature. I’m happy with gay, even though it’s similarly inaccurate, but if it wasn’t? I think queer would be where I would fall.

I probably use gay for the ease of comprehension of others. If I completely removed the notion of other people from my thought process, I’d probably find queer a much better fit. But I’m not uncomfortable defining myself the way I do, and so I haven’t changed. That’s not true of everyone, and it’s nothing to do with me how others choose to define themselves, so why the fuck would I have a problem with it? And if you do, why? Through association? Someone else doesn’t feel that the 4-choice labelling system you ascribe to is sufficient for the purpose of accurately labelling the gamut of humanity, and so you’d quite happily invalidate their existence for it? Because they wanted a catch-all 5th option to mop up outlying spills? Boooooo. Boooo you. You’re a pantomime villain.

Regarding trans people and the LGBT moniker, I think Derek puts it quite nicely; It’s a political term and the groups all have one thing in common; they fall outside of the norm of cisgendered heterosexuality. There is a great deal over overlap, it’s a fact. I have no problem supporting trans people. I have no problem challenging statements I feel to be bigoted towards anyone, regardless of whether they be L, G, B, T, Q or even A. Inclusivity isn’t a right for all, so long as there aren’t so many as to make an acronym unwieldy. Stop assuming people are wrong about their own experience - of their own lives - simply because you don’t like being associated with a group with more than 4 letters in an acronym. I’ve been guilty of it, I know now that I was a dick for it. Don’t be a dick.

And nobody is being bullied into finding trans people attractive. Nobody is stupid enough to think they can bully someone into finding them attractive beyond about 11 years old.
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 3 April 2021, 21:25

Derek wrote:This has never seemed that difficult to me. LGBT isn't a scientific term, it's a political one, and there's a great deal of overlap in how those groups are perceived and treated, especially in past decades. I'm perfectly happy expressing solidarity with trans people, and refusing to do so now just because gay people's political goals have largely been fulfilled strikes me as selfish.

As for people being... bullied?... into dating trans people, I haven't seen an example of that happening that wasn't, like, a faked twitter screenshot. Based on everything I've seen and experienced, people are more likely to delude themselves into believing this is an actual problem, than it actually being a problem.

I feel like his rant highlights more a problem with progressive politics, namely that it’s been too exclusionary and holds onto its concepts as articles of faith rather than points to be discussed. And I’m not even talking about reaching out to people who disagree with you, just with those who generally do and make an effort to be allies yet get shunned and cast as no better than a bigot.
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby Derek » 3 April 2021, 22:01

I think it's less a problem with progressive politics and more with the kinds of communities that intersect with progressive politics. People think twitter is real life, and twitter is inhabited by emotionally damaged children who weaponize politics to exert the only power they are capable of wielding. There will always be people like that, and the onus is on the rest of us not to point at a crazy person and appoint them the mascot of their ideology. I'm instantly suspicious of people who decry "crazy trans activists", because I know plenty of trans activists who aren't crazy and who are ignored by the people constructing their preferred narrative.
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 3 April 2021, 22:28

Derek wrote:I think it's less a problem with progressive politics and more with the kinds of communities that intersect with progressive politics. People think twitter is real life, and twitter is inhabited by emotionally damaged children who weaponize politics to exert the only power they are capable of wielding. There will always be people like that, and the onus is on the rest of us not to point at a crazy person and appoint them the mascot of their ideology. I'm instantly suspicious of people who decry "crazy trans activists", because I know plenty of trans activists who aren't crazy and who are ignored by the people constructing their preferred narrative.

I can tell you as someone who does have progressive, activists friends, many of whom are adult social workers and not children, they are more or less the way I described. It isn’t just a twitter thing. University campuses have also been plagued by this sort of phenomenon and are reinforced by campus middle management and administrators; Hunter described to me in private his rather depressing and suffocating experience at his liberal arts college.

I’m not suggesting this represents most progressives, but we have to acknowledge that these people exist, and often are at the forefront of radical anarchic changes (like the people who set up “The Free State of George Floyd” in Minneapolis where police are prohibited and are lauded and encouraged by mainstream progressive voices). There’s a certain irony with expressing the principle that we should “stop assuming people are wrong about their own experience” while continually gaslighting everyone else as just being pawns to right wing scaremongering.
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby Derek » 3 April 2021, 23:11

poolerboy0077 wrote:I’m not suggesting this represents most progressives

Does it represent most trans people? Does it have anything to with their struggles as a political class? Why is every discussion about trans people also a discussion about the most hysterical margin of campus culture activists? Is that something they really deserve?
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 3 April 2021, 23:37

Derek wrote:
poolerboy0077 wrote:I’m not suggesting this represents most progressives

Does it represent most trans people? Does it have anything to with their struggles as a political class? Why is every discussion about trans people also a discussion about the most hysterical margin of campus culture activists? Is that something they really deserve?

As I said above, I took Claudio’s rant as a more general rant against insular progressive groups, given that he talked about feminists groups to lesbian ones to trans ones. (Being totally honest, I read the first three paragraphs and thought I got the gist of what he was trying to get at. I didn’t see that he sort of awkwardly conflated feminism, which is both an academic discipline and an activist cause with trans people generally. So, to answer you more directly, no, I don’t think trans people deserve to be tarred with the constant rants against progressive politics generally. My initial comment addresses what I took the thread to be about, namely progressive groups continuously shunning would-be allies.) My point had little to do with the groups themselves and more with the way progressive activism has locked itself in and sees any deviation away from full acceptance of its orthodoxy as heresy. Take feminist and gay issues. There is clearly a difference between seeking social acceptance, recognizing biases and structural issues, pushing for social change etc., which is a moral claim, and arguing that men and women are indistinguishable from one another or that we’re born this way, which is an empirical claim about the world, and that any input you may give as to the latter, no matter how gentle and sensitive you may phrase is proof that you’re the enemy, that you’re a bad faith actor and a douche. You can dismiss the people who react negatively to all this as childish and who need to get over themselves and whatnot, but continually ignoring this counterproductive way of how progressives approach their causes will only keep pushing people further and further away.

And for the record, yes, I do believe that “outsiders” should be mindful of the fact that certain groups often face incredible obstacles, that their own experiences are often dismissed, and that “outsiders” are too quick to scrutinize other people’s identities, identities which are deep and important aspects of who they are, how they see themselves and how they interact with the world. It’s a touchy thing and I get that. My point was more along the lines of progressive politics seemingly making itself poorly understood with ever-obfuscating jargon and that it’s self-righteousness turns otherwise good allies away.
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby betonhaus » 4 April 2021, 01:09

I do see a lot of things now where even gay and lesbian rights are being treated as second class to trans rights. Some of the stuff that trans people are arguing for, like letting really really young children start taking hormones or puberty blockers and other drastic choices, I don't really get and I can't support. And there's cases like women's shelters in Vancouver being closed because they refused to hire trans workers. Plus the whole SuperStraight thing tries to raise awareness to the bad parts like people being pressured into situations they weren't comfortable with, only for the whole movement to be silenced and blocked from reddit and other platforms as much as possible. Not to mention that there are lots of cases of people trying to transition back to their biological gender only to be outright ostracized from their communities.

I don't really understand what goes on in other communities so I can't really go blindly advocating for them.
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby Eryx » 5 April 2021, 12:58

Pooler, that's exactly what I was trying to get at, thank you for putting it so eloquently.

I don't think there's any reason to have the impression that I'm trying to invalidate transexuality or its place on the LGBT acronym. My point was to put into discussion and talk about the fact that these members have been more united in the past and are now a little more distant, aside from Pride Parades. And some activism is to blame, doing exactly the opposite of what it purports to do.

Also, we might argue that everything is only happening on Twitter, that it's something that is too small and far away from us, but in reality I see a lot of companies where I live taking hiring stances, structural changes and even name changes because of some sort of inclusive activism, but in reality it doesn't do much, it's just fluff. So things that started on Twitter are affecting society and I think we're going the wrong way about it.

Brazil has always had a racism problem, and it was glaring twenty years ago. But its nature was very different than what happens in the United States. Over the recent years, the fact that our debate has been closer together due to the internet made some of the racial topics and issues in Brazil conflated with the US, and that was hugely counterproductive. Even though we made enormous progress in some ways, in others we went back because of American problems that weren't even something we had to worry about to begin with.

Those are the sort of little things and points of friction that have been bothering me and prompted me to create t´his thread.
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby Brenden » 5 April 2021, 15:07

Derek wrote:People think twitter is real life, and twitter is inhabited by emotionally damaged children who weaponize politics to exert the only power they are capable of wielding. […] I'm instantly suspicious of people who decry "crazy trans activists", because I know plenty of trans activists who aren't crazy and who are ignored by the people constructing their preferred narrative.

Unfortunately, the shouting of vocal minorities often has real-life consequences for real-life people.

Or when the largest book retailer bans a book in an oligopolic market, that has a chilling effect on free speech.
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby Derek » 5 April 2021, 23:24

Brenden wrote:Unfortunately, the shouting of vocal minorities often has real-life consequences for real-life people.

Or when the largest book retailer bans a book in an oligopolic market, that has a chilling effect on free speech.

I'm not interested in defending cancel culture (although I'll note both those articles are full of transphobic dogwhistles and completely mischaracterize several of the controversies). This is exactly what I was talking about before. The question of whether strident SJW cucks exist is completely separate from the question of whether trans people need and deserve political support. So when Claudio says

I don't think there's any reason to have the impression that I'm trying to invalidate transexuality or its place on the LGBT acronym.


I'm confused because he also said

I'm not going to support trans people openly at all anymore.


This doesn't make sense to me. Like, sorry about this medical gatekeeping bill, but a crazy person yelled at me so you're on your own? There is a conflation here that isn't warranted.

I don't want to just dismiss everyone's grievances with how unpleasant activist communities can be. But there's a tendency to see things in black and white, and the practice of making the most obnoxious extremists the representatives of progressive ideology is something reactionaries have always done in order to oppose it. I feel that as people sympathetic to progressive causes, we shouldn't be doing that work for them.

I'm reminded of a tweet I saw recently from a trans Youtuber:

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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 6 April 2021, 00:04

Derek wrote:I feel that as people sympathetic to progressive causes, we shouldn't be doing that work for them.

To be fair, Claudio did mention he would continue to be supportive of causes in his initial post. I think what he might’ve meant was that he has no further desire to pursue activist communities. I mean, I certainly don’t — I certainly never even did for gays or Mexicans. Have you? Would you even want to?
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby Brenden » 6 April 2021, 12:19

Derek wrote:medical gatekeeping

In other words, following the proper medical procedure of diagnosis and conservative treatment options before prescribing body- and mind-altering, irreversible drugs and surgery. You know, like what is done for every other medical intervention.

You're just throwing out terminology made up by the very extremist activists we're discussing. The kinds of people like Mermaids, who want prepubescent children to be prescribed puberty blockers.

(Note that, as I have already brought up and cited many times, the vast majority of gender dysphoric children and adolescents desist by adulthood.)
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby Brenden » 6 April 2021, 12:30

Why I Resigned from Tavistock: Trans-Identified Children Need Therapy, Not Just ‘Affirmation’ and Drugs
Marcus Evans, former Consultant Psychotherapist and Associate Clinical Director of Adult and Adolescent Service at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust, wrote:To some extent, the extreme deference now being shown to trans-presenting children may be linked to the more general change in the way doctors and other authority figures are perceived in the internet era. While such authority figures once had broad licence to evaluate their patients according to their expertise, such “gatekeeping” is now seen as controlling and even repressive. Many patients now see a doctor’s visit through the lens of consumer culture—whereby the customer is always right.
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby Derek » 6 April 2021, 19:12

Brenden wrote:
Derek wrote:medical gatekeeping

In other words, following the proper medical procedure of diagnosis and conservative treatment options before prescribing body- and mind-altering, irreversible drugs and surgery. You know, like what is done for every other medical intervention.

You're just throwing out terminology made up by the very extremist activists we're discussing. The kinds of people like Mermaids, who want prepubescent children to be prescribed puberty blockers.

(Note that, as I have already brought up and cited many times, the vast majority of gender dysphoric children and adolescents desist by adulthood.)

You have no idea what treatment is standard or appropriate. You're not a medical doctor, you're some guy who hates trans people. I'm even less interested in having this argument with you than I am in defending cancel culture. All I'll say that is that medical gatekeeping has a long history; it wasn't just "made up" in recent years by crazy activists trying to coerce children.

poolerboy0077 wrote:
Derek wrote:I feel that as people sympathetic to progressive causes, we shouldn't be doing that work for them.

To be fair, Claudio did mention he would continue to be supportive of causes in his initial post. I think what he might’ve meant was that he has no further desire to pursue activist communities. I mean, I certainly don’t — I certainly never even did for gays or Mexicans. Have you? Would you even want to?

I guess it depends on what you mean by "open". I don't think gay rights would have ever made it very far without the cultural shift that was brought about by open and widespread support.
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby Brenden » 6 April 2021, 19:51

Derek wrote:
Brenden wrote:
Derek wrote:medical gatekeeping

In other words, following the proper medical procedure of diagnosis and conservative treatment options before prescribing body- and mind-altering, irreversible drugs and surgery. You know, like what is done for every other medical intervention.

You're just throwing out terminology made up by the very extremist activists we're discussing. The kinds of people like Mermaids, who want prepubescent children to be prescribed puberty blockers.

(Note that, as I have already brought up and cited many times, the vast majority of gender dysphoric children and adolescents desist by adulthood.)

You have no idea what treatment is standard or appropriate. You're not a medical doctor, you're some guy who hates trans people. I'm even less interested in having this argument with you than I am in defending cancel culture. All I'll say that is that medical gatekeeping has a long history; it wasn't just "made up" in recent years by crazy activists trying to coerce children.

I'm not, but the person I quoted above is a psychological professional, who was on the board of governors of the primary transgender clinic in the UK. Why don't you give his piece a read?

Also, I do not hate trans people. This is exactly the problem with all of this bullshit that this thread is about — anyone who has any criticism whatsoever gets labeled a transphobe or bigot or hateful person. It's the same as with 'homophobia' and 'misogyny' etc. You're just trying to shut down open discussion and opposing opinions. It's unbecoming.
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