The L / G / B / T divide

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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby PopTart » 9 January 2022, 10:03

Derek wrote:First of all, spheres and ellipses are round.
Ahem: As adjectives the difference between spherical and round
is that spherical is (geometry) shaped like a sphere while round is circular or cylindrical; having a circular cross-section in one direction.


But no, okay, I was being pedantic in reference mostly.

Derek wrote:I'm going to start helping you. This was... 907 words.
Marmadukes right, you DO need Daddy in your grindr profile :keke: Tee hee hee ::Blush, Coquettish smile:: :3

Derek wrote:Here's how I would have said it:

"You're right, the words I chose staked an indefensible claim. However, I stand by the point that compromise is sometimes the right option, and even when it's not, it may be the only viable option."
:wide-eyed: How did you do that?



Derek wrote:...To which I'd say, this is a point without a purpose. Whether truth is found between two positions (or not in alignment with them at all) depends on that specific truth and on those specific positions. Rhetoric about the necessity of compromise or the righteousness of centrism is worthless if it makes no reference to what's actually in dispute.
To which I'd agree and was the point I was making. Sort of, rather badly. I don't believe that centrism is righteous mind you, just pragmatic and sensible. But I digress.


Derek wrote:For instance, the example of slavers and abolitionists. I brought them up to demonstrate right and wrong in a moral framework. The abolitionists weren't right because Sherman's march to the sea was a brilliant tactical move. They were right because they believed that slavery was evil and had to be ended. If you think the political crisis caused by slavery could have been handled better, by all means tell us how. But that's not the point.
Agreed. I will say, I don't feel I'm well enough informed, or have any personal experience that would make up for that lack of informedness, to weigh in on alternatives to the historic handling of slavery as a political and social crisis. But I am able to look back and recognise that the path taken, wasn't the most optimal. Armed as I am with hindsight. Hence my reluctance to commit to an authoritative opinion on the subject, I'm happy to talk about it, but I'd purely be spitballing here.

Derek wrote:This is a question of rhetoric. If someone stakes a moral claim, you respond with a moral claim of your own. You don't bog down the discussion with useless generalizations, because that's not helpful, and cynic that I am, I don't believe it's meant to be helpful. I refer you back to this statement:

I wrote:It's a method of fillibustering change you would rather not see enacted that spares you from the responsibility of articulating an actual defense of the status quo on its own terms.

and this one

I wrote:Every socially progressive campaign for human rights that is widely celebrated and accepted today was opposed in its own time by cowardly people who considered the cause to be worthy in spirit but too unpleasant and confrontational in execution.

These are the points you need to respond to. I'm making a specific accusation: that your rhetoric is useless at best and harmful at worst because to aimlessly stall is to take the side of conservative reactionaries. Tell me how what you believe is different than what was believed by the white moderates MLK complained about in his letter.
In the context of this threads topic, I guess I am arguing for the status quo, because here in the UK, gay men are now afforded all of the same rights as everyone else, under the law. Infact, I would go so far as to say, that we get preferential treatment at times, thanks to positive discrimination policies (which is something I have a problem with, as it conferes resentment in regards to our perceived advantages)

Just a couple of months back, I watched two young lads, who had came out of school, jumped on the back of an electric scooter the one at the back, arms wrapped around the one at the front and zipped over to a bus stop and when they hopped off the scooter, hugged, kissed and held hands as they waited for a bus. I felt a visceral pang on seeing this, because a part of me was so amazed that no-one even looked twice. There was heavy traffic, hundreds of other school kids around, from diverse backgrounds, bumper to bumper traffic on the road and you know what? Nobody cared. Nobody paid it any mind. No-one stared (except perhaps me!) or shouted derogatory statements or abuse. Contrary to the lamentation of some people, we have arrived. We have freedoms and acceptance, even I wouldn't have thought possible when I first came out. I could never have dreamed of such public displays of affection, going unnoticed or unremarked upon, as a young man, let alone a school age one.

But the pendulum swings. We have such rights by the grace of a receptive majority, convinced by the movement of years past, to recognise our rights. It sucks but that's how it is. Was that achieved by shaming people? I don't think it was. I think it was achieved by reminding people, that we were their sons, their daughters. Their family. We didn't make of them, our enemies, because having done so, would have made us, theirs.

The current movement, is all about making people enemies, if you don't see things their way. Take the trans movement, which is so overzealous, that it will mischaracterize the things people say, if it even sounds remotely unsupportive of the trans movement. It seeks out discrimination in even the slightest voices of dissent, it makes enemies of potential allies or converts. Once found it zeroes in for the kill. Because they are on a moral crusade to prove the righteousness of their cause.

I'm with those, that firmly believe, it doesn't help. It isn't working. On the contrary it has galvanised a far more radical pushback, than the gay rights movement of the past, ever managed to illicit. Yet what do current radical activists do? Do they reflect? Do they listen to more moderate voices counselling a change of tack? No. They double down. :shrug:

The pendulum swings and if some of the radical activists of the present day get their way, it will reach it's apogee before they achieve what they claim to desire and it will begin swinging back the other way. And we will be on the hook with them.
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby GayinIndiana » 11 February 2022, 04:50

Divide indeed. A leg on each side of the fence. That's how our world, and not just the LGBTQ community, is in present times.
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby arcanepersona » 14 March 2022, 18:01

This is a complicated topic. I seen Twitter mobs that harassed porn actors and onlyfans creators for sleeping with females or ftms. It has gotten so bad that a porn star locked his account so he wouldn’t be harassed. So there is definitely a growing division in the LGBT community. At the same time, I think that this is to be expected. As a black homosexual who grew up in the US Bible Belt, I think that the gay community is just prone to sexual policing when compared to Southern Baptist. I think there somethings that LGBT community need to acknowledge. Most of the problems and the division stem from the fact that the LGBT organizations don’t offer any insight or answers to them.

I know that white liberals like to believe that an equal and universal pansexuality can be achieved with on earth. Or universal acceptance that homosexuality, bisexuality, or trans are normal. That’s never going to happen. So the answers have to be found on how to deal with being non-heterosexual in a world where non-heterosexuals will always be second place.

This leads me to my next point, most of the gays that went after onlyfan creators were non white. Most of them were Latino or come from immigrant backgrounds. As someone who come from a similar background, i think that the impulse comes from the belief that homosexuality is taken less seriously in those communities. The existence of bisexuality and trans probably complicate matters. Not the mention that the assumptions and connotations that heterosexuals have carries over to the lgbt community. Like having sex with women or being a top makes you more masculine.

To be fair, heterosexuals of all races and both sexes will do anything to protect their identity of heterosexuality. Even white liberals. Black women will tell you point blank that they don’t want to sleep or have sex with bisexual men. White men, unless their urban liberals, would laugh at you if you suggest that they consider MTF in their dating pool.

So how do you find a solution in this type of situation where people want to assert the boundaries of their identity?
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby arcanepersona » 14 March 2022, 18:08

Another elephant in the room with trans right, is that the trans community is asking for external validation at the expense of the majority. Does an individual have the right to be seen as they want to be seen? Doesn’t that infringe on other people’s right to have their own view point, especially when it comes to sexuality?
Sure, you could gaslight people into saying that trans people are going to commit suicide. But again that only works in white Christian and post Christian cultures.
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Re: The L / G / B / T divide

Unread postby Brenden » 24 March 2022, 10:42

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