Trump wants to be impeached

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Re: Trump wants to be impeached

Unread postby Brenden » 7 December 2019, 23:20

I don’t even know where to begin reasoning with someone who thinks ⅓ of Americans are extreme white nationalists.

At least when talking with my Trump-supporting family we can work our way in talking about health care and get them to say things like “sounds like [the NHS] is a good system” after just 10 minutes or so of reasonable conversation.
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Re: Trump wants to be impeached

Unread postby homomorphism » 7 December 2019, 23:23

Brenden wrote:I don’t even know where to begin reasoning with someone who thinks ⅓ of Americans are extreme white nationalists.

At least when talking with my Trump-supporting family we can work our way in talking about health care and get them to say things like “sounds like [the NHS] is a good system” after just 10 minutes or so of reasonable conversation.

I don't know where to begin reasoning with someone who thinks because their family member voted in a vocal white nationalist that they're not a white nationalist just because they said a nice thing about the NHS.
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Re: Trump wants to be impeached

Unread postby Jzone » 7 December 2019, 23:31

Like René, I never suggested anything about compromise. I only promote a conversation to involve as many people of differing world views as possible so we can work towards survival as a species and a planet. It is a frustrating process and it takes time, but it is far better than wishing the opposition to disappear.

I edited my previous post for clarity, but I did not edit my question to you, morphie. Now you are the one who has back-pedaled an endorsement of violence to say "anything done to hurt these shitty people politically is justified." Nice white-washing.
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Re: Trump wants to be impeached

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 7 December 2019, 23:32

Brenden wrote:I don’t even know where to begin reasoning with someone who thinks ⅓ of Americans are extreme white nationalists.

Not with that white privilege you won’t. :oface:
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Re: Trump wants to be impeached

Unread postby homomorphism » 7 December 2019, 23:33

Jzone wrote:Like René, I never suggested anything about compromise. I only promote a conversation to involve as many people of differing world views as possible so we can work towards survival as a species and a planet. It is a frustrating process and it takes time, but it is far better than wishing the opposition to disappear.

I edited my previous post for clarity, but I did not edit my question to you, morphie. Now you are the one who has back-pedaled an endorsement of violence to say "anything done to hurt these shitty people politically is justified." Nice white-washing.


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"That's not what I tried to imply you meant!"

We're literally in a conversation about whether or not Trump wants to be impeached by the left. I'm sorry for hoping you could read in context. I'll try better in the future :(

And yes, not calling them evil is compromising with them. They're racist, sexist, transphobic, etc. Or they're fine with electing someone who espouses these positions. It doesn't constitute a functional difference if you're just fine surrounding yourself with these kinds of beliefs or if you personally espouse them. Not calling people out for their horrible positions is compromise.
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Re: Trump wants to be impeached

Unread postby Brenden » 7 December 2019, 23:36

homomorphism wrote:
Brenden wrote:I don’t even know where to begin reasoning with someone who thinks ⅓ of Americans are extreme white nationalists.

At least when talking with my Trump-supporting family we can work our way in talking about health care and get them to say things like “sounds like [the NHS] is a good system” after just 10 minutes or so of reasonable conversation.

I don't know where to begin reasoning with someone who thinks because their family member voted in a vocal white nationalist that they're not a white nationalist just because they said a nice thing about the NHS.

You know how people pick and choose content from the Bible to suit their own moral code and fit the zeitgeist?

It’s kind of like that with Trump. He says a lot of shit, often self-contradictory. White nationalists hear what they want to hear. Others hear what they want. You’re picking out the worst of what he says and assuming that every one of his supporters heard it, processed it, and agrees with it, and then using this as justification for not even trying to converse with them and actually ascertain what they really believe and possibly bring them toward your own point of view (if not on all subjects at least on a few).

It’s ridiculously close-minded and counterproductive.

You’re just as bad as the worst Trump supporters.
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Re: Trump wants to be impeached

Unread postby Derek » 7 December 2019, 23:39

In the context of politics, all that matters is the side you pick. The question isn't whether every Trump supporter is a nice person or a meanie. The question is whether we should give a fuck about them. The answer is very obviously no.
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Re: Trump wants to be impeached

Unread postby Brenden » 7 December 2019, 23:41

Yeah, because that Hillary “Basket of Deplorables” Clinton strategy really worked out!

Oh wait.
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Re: Trump wants to be impeached

Unread postby homomorphism » 7 December 2019, 23:42

Brenden wrote:
homomorphism wrote:
Brenden wrote:I don’t even know where to begin reasoning with someone who thinks ⅓ of Americans are extreme white nationalists.

At least when talking with my Trump-supporting family we can work our way in talking about health care and get them to say things like “sounds like [the NHS] is a good system” after just 10 minutes or so of reasonable conversation.

I don't know where to begin reasoning with someone who thinks because their family member voted in a vocal white nationalist that they're not a white nationalist just because they said a nice thing about the NHS.

You know how people pick and choose content from the Bible to suit their own moral code and fit the zeitgeist?

It’s kind of like that with Trump. He says a lot of shit, often self-contradictory. White nationalists hear what they want to hear. Others hear what they want. You’re picking out the worst of what he says and assuming that every one of his supporters heard it, processed it, and agrees with it, and then using this as justification for not even trying to converse with them and actually ascertain what they really believe and possibly bring them toward your own point of view (if not on all subjects at least on a few).

It’s ridiculously close-minded and counterproductive.

You’re just as bad as the worst Trump supporters.


I'm sorry that your family members are racist pieces of shit. But they are, or they're functionally equivalent because they don't mind it. You can keep going through mental gymnastics to not have to deal with it, but they're still horrible people.
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Re: Trump wants to be impeached

Unread postby Brenden » 7 December 2019, 23:45

My God, you’re deluded as fuck.
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Re: Trump wants to be impeached

Unread postby Derek » 7 December 2019, 23:50

Brenden wrote:Yeah, because that Hillary “Basket of Deplorables” Clinton strategy really worked out!

Oh wait.

Do you really think that hurt her? Like, that was the thing that compromised her grand political strategy of winning suburban moderates?
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Re: Trump wants to be impeached

Unread postby Jzone » 7 December 2019, 23:51

I whole-heartedly agree that an extended Trump presidency would be a threat to society, minorities, the environment, planetary survival, moral decency, and human progress in general. However, I repeat that calling Republicans, your neighbors, or Brenden's parents "EVIL" will not help the cause in any way. I believe it will work counter to the outcome desired. I really believe we are on the same page, except for the last line in the final paragraph.

What matters is not the side you pick, but simply the outcome of the whole. (I risk far too many jokes about the outcum of the hole on a gay forum. Beat you to it.)
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Re: Trump wants to be impeached

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 7 December 2019, 23:54

homomorphism wrote:I'm sorry that your family members are racist pieces of shit. But they are, or they're functionally equivalent because they don't mind it. You can keep going through mental gymnastics to not have to deal with it, but they're still horrible people.

Curious but what do you consider to be fruitful in conversations like the one in this thread? Suppose you convinced Brenden that his family members are “racist pieces of shit.” Now what? I understood your argument to be about feasibility—that in the aggregate it just isn’t doable to change minds through national discourse. What is the point of even going on in this thread given your line of reasoning?
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Re: Trump wants to be impeached

Unread postby Jzone » 7 December 2019, 23:56

Derek wrote:
Brenden wrote:Yeah, because that Hillary “Basket of Deplorables” Clinton strategy really worked out!

Oh wait.

Do you really think that hurt her? Like, that was the thing that compromised her grand political strategy of winning suburban moderates?

I honestly think that was a turning point where Clinton lost a significant number of potential independent supporters. To put down a rising level of Trump supporters, or simply Republicans, as "deplorables" made her look elitist and dismissive.
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Re: Trump wants to be impeached

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 8 December 2019, 00:01

Now that I think about it some more, Derek, weren’t you one of those revered undecided voters back in 2012 unsure about which candidate to choose? You fucking racist white piece of human Santorum! :angry: That’s it I’m telling your mother. I’m sure she will be incredibly humiliated.
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Re: Trump wants to be impeached

Unread postby Brenden » 8 December 2019, 00:03

Derek wrote:
Brenden wrote:Yeah, because that Hillary “Basket of Deplorables” Clinton strategy really worked out!

Oh wait.

Do you really think that hurt her? Like, that was the thing that compromised her grand political strategy of winning suburban moderates?

I mean that the comment was illustrative of her strategy, not that the comment itself spoiled it.
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Re: Trump wants to be impeached

Unread postby EleniDoSorto66 » 8 December 2019, 00:04

I'm sorry but my opinion is eventually you'll have to take a stand and hold to your convictions. I'm sure we can agree that rationalizing with Nazi's most likely wasn't going to help. They'd ignore you.

There is a clear definition of human "stupidity" at play here -- whether by their own choice or not ("ignorant"), I do believe one should try to respect or take into consideration ones beliefs and try to understand them as a human; but do not protect ones beliefs when those ideologies are deeply rooted within illogical, unreasonable, bigotted and prejudice mindsets, whether or not they know of it or not (I'm sure it's not their fault -- though they could try a little harder) with the extreme possibility for this attitude to manifest outwardly in the manner to harm others.
I've known ignorant but otherwise lovely people whom all claim to love others, as often the many people I've met whom are ultra religious and support Trump have want to say, but to than smile, completely enshrouded in their conviction of being a good person, turn towards another person and say "you shouldn't be here, than. And if you don't change you're going to Hell." Or tell the Mexicans to "go back to their own country." I wouldn't say that person is evil, but that mentality breeds and allows evil acts to occur.

Also, I don't know why this is maybe a hard to understand concept to accept*, but some people clearly are intentionally vile and malacious and enjoy afflicting pain on others. This is common human nature -- we enjoy hurting others. This has been proven time and time again.

You can talk of compromise and middle ground all you want but it's a clear privilege to have and not at all reasonable when someone comes at you with a loaded gun in your face. The main definition of stupidity is hard-headedness with the inability to change/understand.

That seems counter-productive to me. "Please, 50 something year old man attacking me at the age of 6 and threatening to drag me in my own yard and drown me in my pond with my father and your son present, can't we talk about this?" Give me a fucking break.
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Re: Trump wants to be impeached

Unread postby homomorphism » 8 December 2019, 00:05

poolerboy0077 wrote:
homomorphism wrote:I'm sorry that your family members are racist pieces of shit. But they are, or they're functionally equivalent because they don't mind it. You can keep going through mental gymnastics to not have to deal with it, but they're still horrible people.

Curious but what do you consider to be fruitful in conversations like the one in this thread? Suppose you convinced Brenden that his family members are “racist pieces of shit.” Now what? I understood your argument to be about feasibility—that in the aggregate it just isn’t doable to change minds through national discourse. What is the point of even going on in this thread given your line of reasoning?


I don't think it'll be fruitful, but I thought these

I don’t even know where to begin reasoning with someone who thinks ⅓ of Americans are extreme white nationalists.


You’re just as bad as the worst Trump supporters.


were pretty dumb and irritated me.

That said, Brenden and Rene seem to be primarily concerned that they know Trump supporters, and that these people can't be bad people because, in other contexts, they don't have issues with them. And that these people likely are capable of coexisting with gay/trans/women/racial minorities without issue. And sure, badness or evilness or whatever doesn't exist in a binary state, and it's completely possible to hold bad positions (or being willing to ignore the ones that don't directly impact you) and still being pleasant enough (or charitable enough) in other contexts. Maintaining relationships with family members means being able to compartmentalize these negative facets of the ones we love and seeing them as something other than these singularly negative attributes.

But, if we're going to take off the apologetic gloves and really handle this, we need to start acknowledging that there's functionally no difference between being willing to surround yourself with bigoted commentary and believing it yourself. Maybe it's unfair to ask Brenden to think of his Trump supporting relatives as racist people, but it's difficult to imagine a way in which we can construct efficient rhetoric to convince people of the dangers that Trump and his supporters pose while being scared of saying something that's going to offend people related to Trump supporters. This, I think, is the main advantage that the Right has managed to exploit.


jzone wrote:I honestly think that was a turning point where Clinton lost a significant number of potential independent supporters. To put down a rising level of Trump supporters, or simply Republicans, as "deplorables" made her look elitist and dismissive.


Eh, I'm not sure that I buy this. I took a look at the 2016 polls by date range. Early September, Clinton led Trump on average by about 3 points. She maintains roughly that lead going into October (it narrows a bit but it's hard to attribute it to a single event). If you really want to go with a single event, Comey's letter likely had a bigger influence.
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Re: Trump wants to be impeached

Unread postby Brenden » 8 December 2019, 00:15

Pretty dumb?

You had just said:
[Trump supporters] feel like it poses a threat to the continued existence of the white race.

Implying that ⅓ of the country are white nationalists concerned with the white race.

That’s pretty fucking dumb.
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Re: Trump wants to be impeached

Unread postby homomorphism » 8 December 2019, 00:18

Brenden wrote:Pretty dumb?

You had just said:
[Trump supporters] feel like it poses a threat to the continued existence of the white race.

Implying that ⅓ of the country are white nationalists concerned with the white race.

That’s pretty fucking dumb.

Yes, I think what you said is pretty dumb. Whether or not you think what I said is also dumb (and even if what I said was dumb), that doesn't have any bearing on the potential dumbness of your comment. That's like, logic 101, pal.

Anyway, I stand by it -- if you support a racist politician, you shouldn't be surprised when people think you're racist.
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