UK Election - Who are you voting for?

Discuss the news, current events, politics, etc.

Who will you vote for in the 2015 UK Election?

Conservative
7
23%
Labour
3
10%
Lib Dem
3
10%
UKIP
2
6%
Green
11
35%
SNP
1
3%
Other
4
13%
 
Total votes : 31

Re: UK Election - Who are you voting for?

Unread postby Severelius » 26 April 2015, 15:32

I have never seen a more tragic-looking group of social misfits and rejects in my life. Maybe they're just upset that they have less friends than 'the foreign kids' in their school.
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Re: UK Election - Who are you voting for?

Unread postby StatusJoe » 26 April 2015, 16:49

There is no Plaid Cymru
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Re: UK Election - Who are you voting for?

Unread postby Edward » 26 April 2015, 21:44

Or DUP or Sinn Fein for that matter
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Re: UK Election - Who are you voting for?

Unread postby Severelius » 28 April 2015, 16:33

I'm oddly tempted to just vote Labour. I'm not voting Tory so no matter what happens my vote is essentially meaningless since nobody other than the Tory bastard is going to win, so that's actually somewhat liberating. A vote for the Greens or Labour is equally worthless here in deep-Tory country.
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Re: UK Election - Who are you voting for?

Unread postby c1ask0 » 28 April 2015, 18:37

Severelius wrote:I'm oddly tempted to just vote Labour. I'm not voting Tory so no matter what happens my vote is essentially meaningless since nobody other than the Tory bastard is going to win, so that's actually somewhat liberating. A vote for the Greens or Labour is equally worthless here in deep-Tory country.

Feeling like your vote won't count is one thing. Voting for a party you don't believe in is something completely different. If you don't support the Conservatives then don't vote for them. Your vote will still contribute towards the overall swing towards whosoever you do decide to support.
Don't think about doing it tomorrow. You won't do it tomorrow. Do it today.
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Re: UK Election - Who are you voting for?

Unread postby René » 28 April 2015, 22:48

I still intend to reply to a lot of other things that have been said in this thread, but for now I wanted to mention I just attended some kind of a debate (which they call a "hustings" here... which is somehow a singular... don't get me started) among the parliamentary candidates for Barnsley Central.

I couldn't believe some of the words that came out of that Liberal Democrat's mouth... implying that people living off food banks are doing it because they like it and they just need to stop being lazy and get a job.  

If I hadn't been told which party they each belonged to, I would have guessed that he was the Conservative candidate (who didn't show up).

His solution: people should grow their own food in their gardens. And he was totally serious. It was bizarre.

The Green Party candidate clearly got the most applause and it looks like he managed to sway a lot of people. Almost everyone I saw leaving took a Green Party leaflet and newspaper home. After being asked "Interested in a Green Party leaflet?", one woman grabbed one and said "I wasn't before tonight!"

It seems our candidate Michael is very convincing.

(I'm sure his dashing looks didn't hurt either. :D)
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Re: UK Election - Who are you voting for?

Unread postby Burns » 29 April 2015, 06:06

If I could, I would vote for your green party.
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Re: UK Election - Who are you voting for?

Unread postby Marmaduke » 29 April 2015, 19:25

So. Today, I have made my decision fairly firmly as to which way my vote will be going next week. I thought I'd ramble on the ins and outs in the hope of dissuading the idea that I am a blindly hard-line Tory, despite the fact that my choice would now appear to support it.

Up until this week, I was genuinely about 50/50 between Labour and The Conservatives. Whilst I do generally side with The Conservatives on about 80-90% of issues, I had real issues with a few that were making me genuinely ask myself if I could vote Conservative in good conscience.

The main headliners were the EU referendum promised by The Conservatives, which I think places a really important decision in the hands of people that don't know really what it is they're actually voting for. I genuinely believe that leaving the EU does the UK no favours, and whilst I don't think our leaving will be a catastrophe, it does nothing to help the image that is increasingly held of the UK by the rest of the world - that we're belligerent, ignorant and stubborn and will only make life more difficult. This was a big draw towards Labour for me, the safety of removing the choice altogether.

I also think that, whilst I do see the thinking behind the Conservative austerity approach and would come down on it as saying I thought it was working, plans for further deep public spending cuts are excessive and the current proposition is an unnecessary increase of an already painful program that seems to scream of political impatience and garnering public opinion in years to come rather than doing what is in the best interests of the country in the next 5 years.

My third big Conservative stumbling block is my seething hatred of Teresa May and all that she is, thinks or does.

Broadly speaking, there isn't a lot to differentiate The Conservatives and Labour on the majority of issues. It's very similar, especially economically. I'll be honest and say that my main reservation prior to this election campaign was the people, and primarily Ed Miliband. As I've covered before, I've actually found myself broadly quite impressed with him throughout and he's done a lot to assuage my doubts about him and even show me that in a lot of ways, he's better than Cameron.

The Liberal Democrats have been so badly damaged by Nick Clegg that they hold no collateral this time around. He's actually now trailing in polls and in line to lose one of the safest seats in British politics and squander a 15,000 vote lead to Labour. They've done themselves no favours by sticking with him and their insistence on holding absolute stances like "we will not form a coalition with any party that will not commit to this or that target by such and such a time" when staring down an election that will see them stripped so desperately short of anything approaching political influence has even alienated a lot of Lib Dem hardliners.

The Greens, at least in my opinion, are playing a very cynical and - admittedly - clever game. They know they won't win, they know that they won't be the ones that people are queuing to form a coalition with. They aren't desperately trying to play damage control. They're just capitalising where the other parties are losing voters - the youth and young adult demographic. The Greens seem now more than ever absolutely unashamed of their perception as the party for environmentalist loons. They're party message basically boils down to "wouldn't it be nice if we all just loved each other and lived in a wigwam on a wind farm?" and the actual issues facing this country seem quite a long way down their priorities list. Their policies are laid out to appeal to graduates, people in the 18-24 age bracket, and so disgustingly obviously that I'm surprised nobody has noticed. There is nothing in their manifesto that does anything for anyone else. They know that they have no shot of actually implementing any of it, so they're making biased and fanciful promises that they know they won't have to try and keep just to barter a supporter base to build on. There is nothing in their manifesto that gives me any sense that they have any idea what they as a party would actually do for the next five years if a miracle happened and they won. The Greens are a local politics party. You vote for them in your constituency because they make you promises that affect you personally. They have nothing to offer nationally. And what is the plan for the party anyway? Who are the faces? Who would end up in the Green cabinet? They haven't even thought about it, because they know they don't need to.

UKIP are a bad joke, the result of the worst sort of lowest common denominator politics. It restores a little of my faith in humanity that Nigel Farage is actually on course to lose in his constituency.

So what was it this week that swung my opinion? I had an epiphany. I realised that no matter who wins what, there will only be one winner this year.

Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP have played an absolutely amazing campaign and have quietly, calmly and seemingly without many people noticing - including me - or caring, left this country with an election that stands to shape the nation more profoundly than any in generations.

Today, polling shows that SNP are on course to win every single seat in Scotland. And that is now my main concern, above and beyond any of my other issues above. The SNP are going to strip Labour of any chance whatsoever of forming a majority government and at the same time cement a significant and unified voice for Scotland in Westminster whilst removing it altogether from the Scottish Parliament. The SNP have all but struck the nail into the coffin of the union. The United Kingdom as we know it is now all but dead in the water. There will be referendum and a unified Scotland entirely free of Westminster will go independent.

There are only two parties in the race to lead this country and the choice above all others is now a simple one; Have a chance of saving the union and leaving the EU with the Conservatives, or maintaining our place in Europe and losing Scotland with Labour. This is the issue that now faces voters and I think it'll be one that gets a lot more media traction this week now that polling is just helping SNP cement their total consolidation.

I've said above that I don't think that leaving the EU will be a catastrophe, but it will be damaging. I think Scotland leaving will be worse.

I cannot get myself past the idea that Scottish Independence is a decision made for the wrong reasons that will only hurt the Scottish people. England will weather it much easier, but it puts us in a precarious position with Wales and Northern Ireland and steers us onto a course that may well lead eventually to the complete disbandment of the United Kingdom. It won't be for a long while, but that is still the profound effect that this election stands to have.

I based my decision on who I felt was most capable of keeping the country together, being firmly of the belief that The United Kingdom and it's people are better together than apart. I asked myself who I thought was the better leader, who most capable of inspiring confidence and getting people to follow them.

Milliband is too tied to SNP, they own him. He can't lead without them.The best he can offer the country is undue influence given to the SNP over national issues. Cameron is the only one with a chance.

I genuinely believe that the best option for the country is a Conservative majority Government. I won't like them, especially not for the next five years, but I dislike the idea of the alternative more.

I'll be voting Tory. I urge you to do the same.
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Re: UK Election - Who are you voting for?

Unread postby Salomé » 29 April 2015, 23:24

I'm not sure I get your reasoning. I'm going to leave all other political issues alone here, and just focus on your Scotland point; partly because we have fundamental disagreements, and partly because I'm lazy.

How exactly do you think that voting Conservative will help to keep the union together? I understand your point about Ed Miliband being completely beholden to their support, and I agree, but five more years under the Tories and David Cameron is not exactly helping to progress your cause. Another Scottish referendum is ultimately something which will have to go in a Scottish manifesto for a Scottish election, which is next year. Another conservative government which Scotland will have categorically not voted for will have the SNPs extremely vocal membership bashing down the door before the summer.

Scotland has been tugging on the chain increasingly strongly these past fifteen or so years. I think devolution is getting to a point where unhealthy differences may soon start to develop between our nations, but that isn't going to stop us from asking for more. Nationalism isn't going to die out up here until we get either independence or extreme, UK-wide reform -- full federalism. I really don't see how a Conservaative maority until 2020 will avoid that. Not that I'm saying that a Labour minority will prevent it either, but I would urge people to vote predominantly based on other issues.
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Re: UK Election - Who are you voting for?

Unread postby Severelius » 29 April 2015, 23:33

I feel uniquely unqualified to comment on Scotland in any way, so I'm going to sidestep that and move on to more cheerful political points:

According to new Lord Ashcroft polling, not only is Nick Clegg going to lose his seat but Nigel Farage isn't going to win his.

I mean, I know it's one set of polling and this election has been up-and-down constantly, but even the possibility of both of these things happening in one go makes me extraordinarily happy.

Plus what with Farage's claim that he'll stand down as leader of UKIP if he's not elected to Parliament, it'll be interesting to see if they can survive too well as a supposedly serious party without the bizarre and creepy cult of personality he seems to have among their supporters.
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Re: UK Election - Who are you voting for?

Unread postby Marmaduke » 29 April 2015, 23:35

Salomé wrote:I'm not sure I get your reasoning. I'm going to leave all other political issues alone here, and just focus on your Scotland point; partly because we have fundamental disagreements, and partly because I'm lazy.

How exactly do you think that voting Conservative will help to keep the union together? I understand your point about Ed Miliband being completely beholden to their support, and I agree, but five more years under the Tories and David Cameron is not exactly helping to progress your cause. Another Scottish referendum is ultimately something which will have to go in a Scottish manifesto for a Scottish election, which is next year. Another conservative government which Scotland will have categorically not voted for will have the SNPs extremely vocal membership bashing down the door before the summer.

Scotland has been tugging on the chain increasingly strongly these past fifteen or so years. I think devolution is getting to a point where unhealthy differences may soon start to develop between our nations, but that isn't going to stop us from asking for more. Nationalism isn't going to die out up here until we get either independence or extreme, UK-wide reform -- full federalism. I really don't see how a Conservaative maority until 2020 will avoid that. Not that I'm saying that a Labour minority will prevent it either, but I would urge people to vote predominantly based on other issues.

I don't think Cameron will give you another referendum, he at least won't even discuss it next parliament.
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Re: UK Election - Who are you voting for?

Unread postby Salomé » 29 April 2015, 23:57

Marmaduke wrote:I don't think Cameron will give you another referendum, he at least won't even discuss it next parliament.

I don't think anyone will, but that's just deferring the problem.
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Re: UK Election - Who are you voting for?

Unread postby Marmaduke » 30 April 2015, 07:14

Milliband will, the SNP will hold too much leverage and iLabout knows if it loses them, it may never make back its seats in Scotland. It actually works for Labour to just cut its losses and run. I think if Milliband becomes PM, independence will be back on the table inside 18 months and you'll get another referendum inside three years.
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Re: UK Election - Who are you voting for?

Unread postby Brenden » 30 April 2015, 07:26

I think y'all be stuck in a zero-sum FPTP mindset. When Labour and the SNP finally fix the Westminster electoral system so every vote counts equally, I think the United Kingdom could easy remain a very united country with a proportionally-represented central government and a path to a proper constitutionally-bound federal system.
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Re: UK Election - Who are you voting for?

Unread postby Jacketh » 30 April 2015, 12:53

I see absolutely no argument for FPTP whatsoever now. Okay, under Blair you could argue it is giving strong government (even that argument has weaknesses) - Fact is, we're now getting coalitions and Labour and Conservatives are struggling to get anywhere near a coalition. I imagine this is going to continue and I think social media contributes too. It is easier for the likes of the Green Party and SNP to be known on social media. Gone are the days of the 70s where you'd vote Labour because you felt complied to because of social background.

Seeing as FPTP isn't fulfilling its purpose and we're getting coalitions, lets at least make these coalitions fair by introducing PR. Distorted coalitions are far from democratic.
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Re: UK Election - Who are you voting for?

Unread postby Ciniselli » 30 April 2015, 14:31

PR is not the only alternative to FPTP.
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Re: UK Election - Who are you voting for?

Unread postby Jacketh » 30 April 2015, 14:41

Ciniselli wrote:PR is not the only alternative to FPTP.


Proportional representation or plurality voting are the realistic options. What would you suggest is another realistic alternative? (unless you're on about hybrid systems?)
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Re: UK Election - Who are you voting for?

Unread postby Ciniselli » 30 April 2015, 14:53

I've always preferred AV. But the great British public disagreed.
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Re: UK Election - Who are you voting for?

Unread postby Brenden » 30 April 2015, 18:25

Marmaduke, whose opinion I greatly respect even when I find it greatly disagreeable, gave a very good argument against AV leading up to the referendum which happened to convince me against it (and wholly for PR, which wasn't his intent :P ):

Marmaduke wrote:
FirePhantom wrote:
Marmaduke wrote:Whether canididates are terrible or not, I don't see that it's terribly democratic that the person who votes for the mainstream party gets their vote counted once, and the person who votes for the weirdo gets their vote counted 5 times.

Actually, it's more likely that the weirdoes will be disqualified in the early rounds, not having received a substantial number of first, second, third, or fourth preference votes, and that fifth preference will go towards one of the mainstream candidates left.

The current system essentially throws away the votes of the people who vote for candidates from the lesser parties, whether they're weirdos or not, forcing people to vote for someone they don't fully agree with but who they feel has a better chance.


But don't you think that's wrong? I completely disagree with the "You didn't vote for the right person, so we're going to disregard that and you're going to vote again" idea.

If Man A loves the Conservatives and Man B loves the Green Party, they both place those as top preference. Man A then goes down the other parties, prioritising them as he sees fit. Man B, recognising that the Green Party don't stand much of a chance decides he'll back it up with a likely vote, so that his vote isn't "wasted" - I hate that term -and chooses the Conservatives.

The day of vote counting comes and the Conservatives have a 46% majority of the preferential vote, the Green Party have had a terrible year and are at the bottom of the list. They are then struck off and recounted as their second preference, which means all of the Greens get a second vote. After this, Conservatives find themselves with a 51% majority.

As far as the numbers show, 51% of the British people want a conservative government when actually only 46% do. Man B wanted Green. All the while, Labour had the vast majority in second preference votes. Had all of the second preferences been counted as well, they would have won. But they weren't. The only votes that were recounted were those of the people that got it wrong the first time around.

I completely disagree with Man B getting two votes when Man A only gets one, all that serves to do is corrupt the result. All votes, including preferences, should be counted and scored accordingly.

How hard is it to give a score of 1-5 against all the parties, having all these scores totalled and the winner being the one with the highest score. That would be the fairest way to represent what the voting masses would be happiest with. The AV system as proposed is inherently unfair and fundamentally undemocratic. All men are equal in law and none have the right to have more votes than another.
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