UK Politics, Reform and Direct Democracy, Could it work?

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UK Politics, Reform and Direct Democracy, Could it work?

Unread postby PopTart » 16 December 2017, 09:03

So my first topic and a surprise even for me, it's not something smutty, but neither is it a "light" subject, both of which, I apologise for :D

Now this is going to be a long post but I will try to be as concise as I'm able (which isn't much, apologies again)

Now, with the current state of our political system in the UK, which I can't hep but feel is, mired in old world thinking, bogged down in political gameplaying, beaureucratic confusion and circuitous ideological concepts that aren't really relevant in the modern world, I can't help but feel, that we desperately need reform of our political system, not only in the english parliament but in the structure of the UK itself.

I don't think I'm alone in my desire for reform, I do however know, that no-one really has a good idea of what reform should look like. Particularly, our politicians, who are so caught up in the way things are done, that they struggle to envision any system that diverges too much from the one they know and are comfortable with.

The fact our current system and it's ever increasing two party politics, each seeming to offer, much of the same in terms of quality and practice, seems incapable of authoritative and capable administration, let alone leadership, seem indicative of underlying problems with representative democracy, in an age of massively divergent and complex social and political needs and expectations.

I watch with dismay as our political leaders, be they labour, conservative, lib-dem or even green party (sorry Brendon, René :D ) all succumb to the same shortcoming, of playing the political game, seeking to curry favour with one or another ideological or social group, while alienating others, all in a desperate bid to get into office for another term, rather than forming policy on a basis of doing whats in the best interest of the wider population and our society in general. Factionalism, petty politiking and showmanship, have taken over as uncertainty about our place in the world and perhaps, even our identity as a nation and peoples, have led to a chronic arrest in our development, political and administratively. Chaos is everywhere, no-one seems to know what they are doing, parties and individuals flip flop all over the place ina game of saving face and nothing gets done, leaving the British people squeezed in the middle and becoming increasingly frustrated and discontent, facing an uncertain future, over which, no-one feels that they have any control. Thats never a good place for a country to be, thats when populist movements, based on extreme ideologies, generally begin to make themselves evident.

Take the scottish referendum, a campaign of fear and smear, that was a acomplete debacle! All the political establishment did the same with Brexit, now those same politicians, lurch from one disastrous misjudgement to the next, all the while, playing games and laying the blame at the feet of the "opposition" and their supporters (us) taking no responsibility while insisting that the British people are incapable of such responsibility (by pointing out how stupid they were to vote the way they did, on both sides)

I know alot of people, speak about proportional representation, which would ensure a more balanced parliament and I used to be one of those that supported the idea. Why it's not in effect already, I can only put down to the political establishment, being more or less content with the way things are. They know how the current system works and how to work it, whats in it for them to go shaking things up? Those in a position of power and influence stand to lose a great deal, if the system they have mastered, is suddenly changed on them.

But I think even proportional representation, isn't enough. I want to cut out the middle man. I want to remove the structures and systems, that encourage stratification and division in our society. I want Direct Decmocracy.

Now I know that such would be a massive challenge, few working examples of such exist in the world (Switzerland comes to mind) especially in countries with such a large and diverse population. The challenges wouldn't only be in how we organised such a government, how we got peoples opinions on matters, how we ensured people were adequately and honestly informed, in order to make the right choices (and this is big issue, considering how poorly BOTH sides of hte Brexit debate handled that mess, childish in the extreme) but also in how we esured it's security from outside influence (I say this, as the only real way I see of being able to get real efficacy and affordablity with such a system would be by some form of digital voting on issues which can be vulnerable to tampering, looking at you Russia!)

Then there's the social issue of populism and that is a genuine and large concern, particularly today, in our increasingly intolerant society, which seems to have forgotten the practice of compromise and conciliation and favours shouting down any opposition, rather than listening and trying to understand the view of those that disagree with us.

But, as I mentioned in another post regarding drug legalisation. I honestly feel that, until people assume the burden of responsbility for themselves, we never learn how to adequately or wisely wield said responsibility and while the possibility exists, for potentially damaging or dangerous populist ideologies, to run rough-shod over the rights of minorities (a particular concern for us!!) I have faith in the British peoples intrinsic belief in fairness and equality, that stretched back to the time of the celts, through to the anglo-saxons and onwards into the modern age. Certainly we have been no angels, slavery, imperialism and flirtations with authoritariansism, but I sincerely believe that it's just not in our makeup, to tolerate such, in the long-term. it's never sat well with us.

Politicians then, would not form into ideological blocks and parties, that have to rely on popular voting to get into power. They would become administrators, rather than rely upon representatives to interpret (or not) the will of the people they represent, would simply become the people that enacted the desires of the general public.

In this way, the government would trully reflect the people. If that government, began to exhibit the worst aspects we often come to fear about a state and it's people, I think the British people would, upon seeing this, pull back from such extremism and/or oppression, the question of who we are and our quality as a people, would be defined then, not y the actions of those we have chosen to represent us, but by the choices we ourselves make and that burden and responsibility, is the only way I can see, of ever creating a society, in which we trully appreciate the gravity of our actions and our choices, our opinions and the manner and form in which we express them.

So what do others think about direct democracy and about political reform in general? Would you prefer more measured reform, with a shift towards PR over first past the post. Perhaps your happy, with or content with the current political climate?

I have no idea of how much traction this will get (or if anyone read that wall of text, sorry about that) but if this thread quickly descends into chaos and pain (as such things are want to do!) I appeal to a mod to delete it shaprish! :D
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Re: UK Politics, Reform and Direct Democracy, Could it work?

Unread postby Brenden » 16 December 2017, 14:49

There should be a balance between representative and direct democracy. People have a lot on their plates in their daily lives and can't be expected to be adequately informed on all the issues necessary for good governance. Specialisation is important for an advanced society, which is why democracy has developed such that power, derived from the people, is delegated to representatives in government.

It's important that the select few who write laws and make decisions on behalf of the people be able to become proficient in such activity by devoting their complete attention to the politics, and gather around them experts and capable administrators. However, they should be directly accountable to the people they represent and their activities should be completely open to the public.

Estonia has a system where every citizen has a cryptographic ID card with which they can vote, digitally sign documents, access personal information held by the government, and directly participate in that government. A representative should be able to poll the people they represent and get a feel for what their constituency wants, and the people should be able to hold their representative to account at any given moment. Digital democracy can be a powerful new system that blends direct and representative democracy. We have the technology!


I believe there is a middle way between full national proportional representation and a constituency-based system such as first-past-the-post. Constituencies could be enlarged and within them a number of seats can be proportionally distributed based on vote shares.

For instance, South Yorkshire has 14 parliamentary constituencies, each comprised of roughly 70,000 voters and all represented by Labour MPs currently. Combining it into one constituency whose 14 seats are divided proportionally would result, based on the 2017 general election, in 8 Labour MPs, 4 Conservative MPs, 1 Liberal Democratic MP, and 1 UKIP MP. That would mean overall the people of South Yorkshire would have truer representation in Parliament — e.g., the ~186,000 Conservative voters of South Yorkshire would have 4 Conservative MPs from their area of the country to represent them, as opposed to the present situation where their voices are not heard at all in Parliament.

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Re: UK Politics, Reform and Direct Democracy, Could it work?

Unread postby acpro » 16 December 2017, 15:02

I want a cryptographic ID card! I love accessories like that.
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Re: UK Politics, Reform and Direct Democracy, Could it work?

Unread postby PopTart » 16 December 2017, 16:32

Thanks for your reply Brenden! It does give me alot to think about. I suspect a true direct democracy, for a nation the size of the UK, would require more efficient technology (for communication) aswell as safeguards for that technology, to prevent tampering.

I will say, i don't entirely agree, that people are too busy to take the time to become informed on every issue. People certainly have enough time to post tweets on just about everything they think they ought to have a say in. Perhaps, if people had more investment in the running of government, they would take the time to be informed, especially if their was a culture of information collection, collation and distribution, for that purpose. That would be expensive however I would imagine.

Perhaps something that would be more feasible in post scarcity economy?

I did like your suggestion with the south yorkshire example, though. If there was going to be reform. That would certainly be a step in the right direction!
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Re: UK Politics, Reform and Direct Democracy, Could it work?

Unread postby Brenden » 16 December 2017, 18:44

PopTart wrote:I will say, i don't entirely agree, that people are too busy to take the time to become informed on every issue. People certainly have enough time to post tweets on just about everything they think they ought to have a say in.

There is a huge difference between people regurgitating their thoughts out in short tweets and actually formulating the kinds of opinions on which governance should be based.

PopTart wrote:Perhaps, if people had more investment in the running of government, they would take the time to be informed, especially if their was a culture of information collection, collation and distribution, for that purpose. That would be expensive however I would imagine.

You would need a massive civil service to collect and distill all the input from citizens into coherent, workable policy and law, and that leaves open the possibility for unscrupulous or corrupt civil servants to twist and warp such policy to their own ends.

Part of the job of elected representatives is to act as a check on the unelected parts of government — the bureaucrats who get all the nitty-gritty done day to day.

PopTart wrote:I did like your suggestion with the south yorkshire example, though. If there was going to be reform. That would certainly be a step in the right direction!

It's partly how the European Parliament works. Europe is divided into regions — like Yorkshire and the Humber — and the MEPs for those regions are elected based on the preparation of votes their party receives within that region.

I think Brexit is a huge shame because the United Kingdom has routinely been a force for reform and democratisation within the European Union, and the most important reform for the European Union going forward would be to take powers away from the European Commission and Council and give it to the elected parliament, which ought to function more like an actual legislature and not just a massive rubber-stamper for Commission initiatives.
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Re: UK Politics, Reform and Direct Democracy, Could it work?

Unread postby Weeman1 » 17 December 2017, 17:43

Brexit scaring me cause im from Northern Ireland. What going to happen with border?
We voted to remain but this could be potentially very bad here.
DUP and Sinn Fein are a pain in the hole. Everytime I see them on tv I cringe, what must the world think of them!?
I dont know anything about politics but know most of them are assholes
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Re: UK Politics, Reform and Direct Democracy, Could it work?

Unread postby Mestaris » 17 December 2017, 19:28

I have absolutely 0 interest in reform. I do not like direct democracy - I find it to be tedious, prone to abuse, and has the potential to create brexit-like divides among people. We have educated, elected officials who are better equipped and informed to tackle issues that would arise under direct democracy, and there is nothing to stop you from lobbying your MP.

I further do not support electoral reform: the FPTP system is the best equipped for supplying us with a majority (however I will accept it does not always, but it does more often than other systems) and prevents our politics reaching the ideological stalemate of Europe. This extends in my opinion to the House of Lords; I find there to be such a thing as "too much" democracy, and the calls to elect a second chamber point to this. I would, in my ideal world, extend the British parliamentary system across Europe - hell, have a USE which operates bicamerally with an elected and an appointed house. I guess I'm a traditionalist in this respect :P
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Re: UK Politics, Reform and Direct Democracy, Could it work?

Unread postby PopTart » 18 December 2017, 13:47

Weeman1 wrote:Brexit scaring me cause im from Northern Ireland. What going to happen with border?
We voted to remain but this could be potentially very bad here.
DUP and Sinn Fein are a pain in the hole. Everytime I see them on tv I cringe, what must the world think of them!?
I dont know anything about politics but know most of them are assholes

How would you feel about re-unification in Ireland? I hope things work out there come brexit, I know it's a tough situation and I would hate for that to push things back. I feel your anxiety there.

Mestaris wrote:I have absolutely 0 interest in reform. I do not like direct democracy - I find it to be tedious, prone to abuse, and has the potential to create brexit-like divides among people. We have educated, elected officials who are better equipped and informed to tackle issues that would arise under direct democracy, and there is nothing to stop you from lobbying your MP.

I further do not support electoral reform: the FPTP system is the best equipped for supplying us with a majority (however I will accept it does not always, but it does more often than other systems) and prevents our politics reaching the ideological stalemate of Europe. This extends in my opinion to the House of Lords; I find there to be such a thing as "too much" democracy, and the calls to elect a second chamber point to this. I would, in my ideal world, extend the British parliamentary system across Europe - hell, have a USE which operates bicamerally with an elected and an appointed house. I guess I'm a traditionalist in this respect :P

Hey mestaris, thanks for your reply! (everyone else too, thought this would sink to the bottom of the forum tbh!)

What exactly is it that you dislike about DIrect Democracy, is the risk of the rise of populism? The danger that people would make bad choices, lacking the required specialisation to make the right ones? I'm genuinely interested to know, not argue against, but to expand my own thoughts on the matter, which I will readily admit are somewhat nebulous (as my post likely infers)

I will say, that I feel RP is superior to FPTP, as it discourages tactical voting. I hate feeling like I have to vote for someone who's policies I don't entirely agree with or like, because the option I want to vote for, is so marginal, that placing that vote anyway, is as good as giving my vote to someone, whose policies, I wholeheartedly despise or strongly disagree with and I think this is a very real problem and FPTP inevitably gravitates towards a two party system, which encourages corruption, dissolution of genuine political and social dynamism and ultimately results in two political parties, who in practice, are barely discernable from one another.

I do agree with your point about the the value of the second chamber and think it's a good system, I do however, feel that there are now too many Lords and that peerages shouldn't be handed out like cookies at a cake sale. There should be a more stringent and clearly defined criteria, for eligibility, preferably based upon genuine and proveable merit. I too would have liked to see the second house model being adopted in the EU and it was one of the big sticking points for me with Brexit.

Brenden wrote:There is a huge difference between people regurgitating their thoughts out in short tweets and actually formulating the kinds of opinions on which governance should be based.

Absolutely true! :D I do however, feel it is very important, that we don't underestimate the capacity of the average person, to make good choices, when they are armed with the best information availbale, it's all too easy to develop a sense of intellectual superiority and assume that the average joe citizen, ought to be silent and accept the decisions of their more informed betters. Thats the slippery road towards oppression and elitism to my mind and should be avoided at all costs.

Brenden wrote:
PopTart wrote:Perhaps, if people had more investment in the running of government, they would take the time to be informed, especially if their was a culture of information collection, collation and distribution, for that purpose. That would be expensive however I would imagine.

You would need a massive civil service to collect and distill all the input from citizens into coherent, workable policy and law, and that leaves open the possibility for unscrupulous or corrupt civil servants to twist and warp such policy to their own ends.

I concede that is very true also. I wont lie, I haven't the mind of an economist, how such a system would be payed for, is beyond me, but then, so too is the inflated salary of some civil servants, such as borough councillors and the like! :D

Brenden wrote:I think Brexit is a huge shame because the United Kingdom has routinely been a force for reform and democratisation within the European Union, and the most important reform for the European Union going forward would be to take powers away from the European Commission and Council and give it to the elected parliament, which ought to function more like an actual legislature and not just a massive rubber-stamper for Commission initiatives.

I do agree that Brexit, or atleast, the handling of Brexit was a massive shame and something for which the curent political establishment should be ashamed. The whole Brexit matter, should have been handled far more delicately and with far more time for people to get aquainted with the issues. Sadly they followed the model of fear and shame used in the scottish referendum. The remain camp allowed the Brexit issue, to be focused upon a single issue (immigration) as they thought it would be the perfect means of demonising the pro-brexit movement, thereby disenfranchising those that might otherwise choose brexit. When instead, they should have been building and presenting a clear plan of action, for how they would have moved forward within europe, had we remained, how we would work for reform, that the british people could be happy with and presenting a picture of the UK in europe.

I really felt uncomfortable with the flip of our own parliamentary system, in Brussels. With the Commission being in effect, what our parliament is (in terms of power and repsonsibility and the EU parliament being a watered down version, or our own house of lords. Angry too that David Cameron, quite clearly had no real interest or desire to seek meaningful reform in Brussel when he went there (though I'm willing to admit, he perhaps had the measure of the political temperament there and knew he wasn't going to get anywhere, so didn't much bother.)
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Re: UK Politics, Reform and Direct Democracy, Could it work?

Unread postby Brenden » 18 December 2017, 21:19

PopTart wrote:
Brenden wrote:There is a huge difference between people regurgitating their thoughts out in short tweets and actually formulating the kinds of opinions on which governance should be based.

Absolutely true! :D I do however, feel it is very important, that we don't underestimate the capacity of the average person, to make good choices, when they are armed with the best information availbale, it's all too easy to develop a sense of intellectual superiority and assume that the average joe citizen, ought to be silent and accept the decisions of their more informed betters. Thats the slippery road towards oppression and elitism to my mind and should be avoided at all costs.

I say it not at all out of a sense of intellectual superiority, but out of a sober sense of my own inferiority when it comes to the knowledge and capabilities required to write law, run a government, and direct an economy.

I want people much smarter than I am in these fields, and generally, to be in charge.

PopTart wrote:
Brenden wrote:
PopTart wrote:Perhaps, if people had more investment in the running of government, they would take the time to be informed, especially if their was a culture of information collection, collation and distribution, for that purpose. That would be expensive however I would imagine.

You would need a massive civil service to collect and distill all the input from citizens into coherent, workable policy and law, and that leaves open the possibility for unscrupulous or corrupt civil servants to twist and warp such policy to their own ends.

I concede that is very true also. I wont lie, I haven't the mind of an economist, how such a system would be payed for, is beyond me, but then, so too is the inflated salary of some civil servants, such as borough councillors and the like! :D

In 2014, Barnsley metropolitan borough councillors received £10,426 per year base rate plus expenses, with the highest total being the leader at £35,848.23 and the second highest being £26,268.03. I'm not sure how you think that's inflated, considering median income in the UK is abour £20,000 and local councillors and administrators have a lot of responsibilities — housing policy, services such as waste collection, public property management, etc. Local governments actually have a far greater impact on people's day-to-day lives than national governments.

PopTart wrote:
Brenden wrote:I think Brexit is a huge shame because the United Kingdom has routinely been a force for reform and democratisation within the European Union, and the most important reform for the European Union going forward would be to take powers away from the European Commission and Council and give it to the elected parliament, which ought to function more like an actual legislature and not just a massive rubber-stamper for Commission initiatives.

I do agree that Brexit, or atleast, the handling of Brexit was a massive shame and something for which the curent political establishment should be ashamed. The whole Brexit matter, should have been handled far more delicately and with far more time for people to get aquainted with the issues. Sadly they followed the model of fear and shame used in the scottish referendum. The remain camp allowed the Brexit issue, to be focused upon a single issue (immigration) as they thought it would be the perfect means of demonising the pro-brexit movement, thereby disenfranchising those that might otherwise choose brexit. When instead, they should have been building and presenting a clear plan of action, for how they would have moved forward within europe, had we remained, how we would work for reform, that the british people could be happy with and presenting a picture of the UK in europe.

My thoughts exactly! I could tell the Remain campaign was doomed from the outset because their messaging was almost entirely negative, with practically no discussion of the concrete benefits of the European Union.
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Re: UK Politics, Reform and Direct Democracy, Could it work?

Unread postby PopTart » 19 December 2017, 11:48

Brenden wrote:I say it not at all out of a sense of intellectual superiority, but out of a sober sense of my own inferiority when it comes to the knowledge and capabilities required to write law, run a government, and direct an economy.

I want people much smarter than I am in these fields, and generally, to be in charge.

Please don't think I was implying something about you, specifically, I meant only that there is an increasing number of those that regard themselves as intellectually more quallified to be making the "imortant decisions" by virtue of their specialisation and that, without such specialisation, others aren't capable of grasping the issues in question and thus should stay out of it. From a certain persepctive, that may be true, but I sincerely believe, that sometimes, being in the thick of things, so to speak, we occasionally get a situation, in which we can't see the wood for the trees and it takes someone, wh ins't so invested in the specifics, to come along and point out, what otherwise, might have been missed.

There are literary endless examples throughout history, of social and intellectual outsiders, with their fresh and often times, dismissed perspective, coming in and turning the institutions and ideas we have become accustomed to, on their heads, by cutting through alot of the details, that have become larger than the actual issue at hand, out of the equation. I do think that we have too littel faith, in ourselves and each other and that lac of faith and the loss of impetus it creates, allows for those more self assured to step into the void created and have their will done and it isn't always for the best.

Brenden wrote:In 2014, Barnsley metropolitan borough councillors received £10,426 per year base rate plus expenses, with the highest total being the leader at £35,848.23 and the second highest being £26,268.03. I'm not sure how you think that's inflated, considering median income in the UK is abour £20,000 and local councillors and administrators have a lot of responsibilities — housing policy, services such as waste collection, public property management, etc. Local governments actually have a far greater impact on people's day-to-day lives than national governments.

I have no doubt that the work such peope do, is very important and very demanding. I do sometimes question the dedication and intent of some of those people, we have too many examples recently of councillors and administrators that have failed or made bad choices in their positions. By and large, the systems we have in place, weed such examples out, but occasionally they fly under the radar and the damage they can do and the undermining of public confidence, can not be underestimated. Especially in such turbulent times.

I will say that, from a personal persepctive, I don't put much stock in the median wage, I've been fortunate in the past to earn around that much, but I put emphasis on the word fortunate, as I know a vast and I mean vast number of people who languise far below that line and I think it is misleading, and also upsetting for those that, work as hard as they might, never manage to elevate themselves outside of minimum wage and the gruelling life that such entails. For many that don't have to face such hardship and are fed stories about the laziness of the lower classes and the idlesness of the poor, fail to understand, how hard it can be for those people, to claw their way up. I see very real dangers in ignoring such issues. I don't deny that such are issues that are multifaceted and complex, but all too many, comfortable in their lot, with all too many other worries, find it more expedient to accept this narrative and ignore the issue, as it is too much more to think about, on top of everything else. But I digress.

Brenden wrote:My thoughts exactly! I could tell the Remain campaign was doomed from the outset because their messaging was almost entirely negative, with practically no discussion of the concrete benefits of the European Union.

Indeed. I waited and waited, for what I thought, was the most logical arguements to come forth, only to be dismayed, when they never materialised, I think, it was the moment I lost faith in our current batch of politicians and that faith has continued to errode, with the increasingly disastrous handling, of just about everything since. Perhaps it's just a case of bad leadership where it counts, or it's an issue more deeply rooted in the forms of our current political establishment. I guess, in many ways, that is what this thread is about, I want to understand better, what others are thinking, and feeling and what alternatives there might be and what circumstances might need exist, for change.

ADDENDUM: Sorry for some of the awful grammar and typos, just got back form the gym and my arms are like jelly, with a mind of their own!
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Re: UK Politics, Reform and Direct Democracy, Could it work?

Unread postby Brenden » 19 December 2017, 15:06

Outsiders who were individuals of extraordinary intelligence or talent!

Let's not forget that taken together the intelligence of the population is, by definition, average. ;) :P
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Re: UK Politics, Reform and Direct Democracy, Could it work?

Unread postby Weeman1 » 19 December 2017, 23:56

PopTart wrote:
Weeman1 wrote:Brexit scaring me cause im from Northern Ireland. What going to happen with border?
We voted to remain but this could be potentially very bad here.
DUP and Sinn Fein are a pain in the hole. Everytime I see them on tv I cringe, what must the world think of them!?
I dont know anything about politics but know most of them are assholes

How would you feel about re-unification in Ireland? I hope things work out there come brexit, I know it's a tough situation and I would hate for that to push things back. I feel your anxiety there.

I honestly dont know. All politics are over my head! I like N.I being part of the U.K, (although we know rest of U.K dont really like us!, but we generally are a lovely bunch!) all residents of N.I have option of dual nationality so either way I have british and Irish passports so travelling round europe will be with Irish passport now!
Things here have always been on egg shells and this isnt helping but whatever happens I just hope it all works out and things dont go bad.
I dont know if a united Ireland would work, I can see both benefits and negatives with it. Our government is in tatters, they wont even sit together in Stormont and could lead the way back to direct rule.
Meh sure whats the worst that can happen :)
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Re: UK Politics, Reform and Direct Democracy, Could it work?

Unread postby PopTart » 20 December 2017, 12:04

Brenden wrote:Outsiders who were individuals of extraordinary intelligence or talent!

Let's not forget that taken together the intelligence of the population is, by definition, average. ;) :P

:D Brenden! For shame, have some faith in the everyday people around us! hehe. I get where your coming from though, I just have to have faith in people, no religion, so gotta believe in something, right?
Weeman1 wrote:
PopTart wrote:
Weeman1 wrote:Brexit scaring me cause im from Northern Ireland. What going to happen with border?
We voted to remain but this could be potentially very bad here.
DUP and Sinn Fein are a pain in the hole. Everytime I see them on tv I cringe, what must the world think of them!?
I dont know anything about politics but know most of them are assholes

How would you feel about re-unification in Ireland? I hope things work out there come brexit, I know it's a tough situation and I would hate for that to push things back. I feel your anxiety there.

I honestly dont know. All politics are over my head! I like N.I being part of the U.K, (although we know rest of U.K dont really like us!, but we generally are a lovely bunch!) all residents of N.I have option of dual nationality so either way I have british and Irish passports so travelling round europe will be with Irish passport now!
Things here have always been on egg shells and this isnt helping but whatever happens I just hope it all works out and things dont go bad.
I dont know if a united Ireland would work, I can see both benefits and negatives with it. Our government is in tatters, they wont even sit together in Stormont and could lead the way back to direct rule.
Meh sure whats the worst that can happen :)

Hate you? No way, I love the Irish, Northern and otherwise, honestly, I've always thought the Irish felt that way about the english :D , possibly the scots too, tbh, historically speaking, you'd have good justification for that. I think, thats why, sometimes, it might come across that we'd prefer you all to bugger off. We don't really want that, but we (or I atleast) feel that, considering historic interference from the english, the less involved we are, the better. We never have been very good at leaving well enough alone.

On a complete fantasy tangent, I sometimes wish, history had played out differently and the British Isles, had been united more peaceably and with equal distribution of power and respect. Alas, imperialism was a thing and Britain was pretty good at it once. Perhaps too much so.

That history though, is always going to be there and I desperately hope that a path out of the current dilemma can be found and navigated, that we might maintain the peace, that has begun to blossom.

I'm all for NI staying in the union, if thats what the people or NI want! As I said, love you guys! :heart:
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Re: UK Politics, Reform and Direct Democracy, Could it work?

Unread postby Weeman1 » 20 December 2017, 15:16

PopTart wrote:
Weeman1 wrote:
PopTart wrote:
Weeman1 wrote:Brexit scaring me cause im from Northern Ireland. What going to happen with border?
We voted to remain but this could be potentially very bad here.
DUP and Sinn Fein are a pain in the hole. Everytime I see them on tv I cringe, what must the world think of them!?
I dont know anything about politics but know most of them are assholes

How would you feel about re-unification in Ireland? I hope things work out there come brexit, I know it's a tough situation and I would hate for that to push things back. I feel your anxiety there.

I honestly dont know. All politics are over my head! I like N.I being part of the U.K, (although we know rest of U.K dont really like us!, but we generally are a lovely bunch!) all residents of N.I have option of dual nationality so either way I have british and Irish passports so travelling round europe will be with Irish passport now!
Things here have always been on egg shells and this isnt helping but whatever happens I just hope it all works out and things dont go bad.
I dont know if a united Ireland would work, I can see both benefits and negatives with it. Our government is in tatters, they wont even sit together in Stormont and could lead the way back to direct rule.
Meh sure whats the worst that can happen :)

Hate you? No way, I love the Irish, Northern and otherwise, honestly, I've always thought the Irish felt that way about the english :D , possibly the scots too, tbh, historically speaking, you'd have good justification for that. I think, thats why, sometimes, it might come across that we'd prefer you all to bugger off. We don't really want that, but we (or I atleast) feel that, considering historic interference from the english, the less involved we are, the better. We never have been very good at leaving well enough alone.

On a complete fantasy tangent, I sometimes wish, history had played out differently and the British Isles, had been united more peaceably and with equal distribution of power and respect. Alas, imperialism was a thing and Britain was pretty good at it once. Perhaps too much so.

That history though, is always going to be there and I desperately hope that a path out of the current dilemma can be found and navigated, that we might maintain the peace, that has begun to blossom.

I'm all for NI staying in the union, if thats what the people or NI want! As I said, love you guys! :heart:


You guys are alright i suppose :P
Whatever happens, hope brexit, doesnt hit any of the home nations too hard and it all works out. (Just so long as you all know, whenever you see DUP or Sinn fein talking we like this :facepalm: behind them.
Last edited by Brenden on 20 December 2017, 17:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UK Politics, Reform and Direct Democracy, Could it work?

Unread postby PopTart » 20 December 2017, 17:20

Weeman1 wrote:You guys are alright i suppose :P
Whatever happens, hope brexit, doesnt hit any of the home nations too hard and it all works out. (Just so long as you all know, whenever you see DUP or Sinn fein talking we like this :facepalm: behind them.

Yeah, that means you like us too! :D :awesome: :heart:
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Re: UK Politics, Reform and Direct Democracy, Could it work?

Unread postby Weeman1 » 21 December 2017, 00:39

:heart: :heart:
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