Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

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Re: Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

Unread postby bluesunstorm » 17 October 2019, 20:46

NvM wrote:trump was not elected by the popular vote.
US elections are decided by only a few percentage points. Who says your vote dosnt count

Your vote only makes a difference in presidential elections if your state is remotely competitive, which isn't the vast majority of states, but that shouldn't let people be dissuaded from voting in state and local matters.
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Re: Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

Unread postby bluesunstorm » 17 October 2019, 20:50

NvM wrote:Obama Care turned some voters republican.
US elections are typically called on only a few percentage points.

Did it really though? Many people really like the Medicaid expansion, not being denied coverage for pre-existing conditions, and being able to stay on their parents' insurance until 26.

Fiscal conservatives were already Republican. Yeah, Democrats were soundly defeated in the 2010 and 2014 mid-terms, but that's typical for the party with current executive power.
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Re: Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

Unread postby mxguy01 » 17 October 2019, 22:16

bluesunstorm wrote:
NvM wrote:Obama Care turned some voters republican.
US elections are typically called on only a few percentage points.

Did it really though? Many people really like the Medicaid expansion, not being denied coverage for pre-existing conditions, and being able to stay on their parents' insurance until 26.

Fiscal conservatives were already Republican. Yeah, Democrats were soundly defeated in the 2010 and 2014 mid-terms, but that's typical for the party with current executive power.


Yep, even us fiscal conservative, moderately confused people, lol. I think many recognize that medical costs are crippling this country as in it's citizens. Funny how many have lost sight of "this country" is it's citizens. So you have a) morally it is the right thing to do, and b) icing on the cake it will be way better for the future of this country fiscally as well.

Honestly, I'd have Bernie in office right now. I'd hope he'd pick a strong VP as they may well be needed to finish his term in the event of something unfortunate. As in Bernie and Warren. But the american population is too gullible for the most part so - I see one of two outcomes. Biden who will likely accomplish nothing, or b) Trump and continued insanity praying we survive until he is out. In other words pretty much the same shit choices we had last time around.

I don't know if Bernie can accomplish the medical for all but I'd like to see someone try at least. I also agree with the re-distribution of wealth. Actually taxes (as in inheritance tax) take care of that a bit except too many ways around it for the wealthy. Plus, it has been past history that people of such vast wealth have in the end done the right thing by not simply leaving it to hiers but rather for good causes. Still, wealth to that magnitude should be re-absorbed so to speak quicker. I just don't see that being accomplished to a great extent anytime soon. Better he concentrate on health care.
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Re: Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

Unread postby Eryx » 18 October 2019, 03:02

bluesunstorm wrote:
NvM wrote:trump was not elected by the popular vote.
US elections are decided by only a few percentage points. Who says your vote dosnt count
Your vote only makes a difference in presidential elections if your state is remotely competitive, which isn't the vast majority of states, but that shouldn't let people be dissuaded from voting in state and local matters.
That's a bit contradictory.
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Re: Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

Unread postby mxguy01 » 15 January 2020, 03:45

How about this narrative: the dumb fuck democratic party keeps giving us shit for candidates to have an viable alternate. My fear is our choice will be Biden or Trump. I'd vote for anyone but Trump but that won't change the fact Trump will win in that case.
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Re: Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 15 January 2020, 03:58

mxguy01 wrote:How about this narrative: the dumb fuck democratic party keeps giving us shit for candidates to have an viable alternate. My fear is our choice will be Biden or Trump. I'd vote for anyone but Trump but that won't change the fact Trump will win in that case.

That’s the kind of absurd narrative only conservatives tell themselves to not have to think about their own depravity. “Obama made me vote for Trump!!! He was too polarizing with his scary socialized medicine of a...marketplace of instance companies. Grrr! Benghazi! And political correctness! We can’t say nigger and spic anymore. The regressive left made me do it! Oh and something something personal responsibility something something.”
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Re: Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

Unread postby Derek » 15 January 2020, 04:05

I don't think he's wrong. By far the most popular choice of voters in this country is no one, because most people don't vote. Biden isn't going to get people out of their homes.
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Re: Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 15 January 2020, 04:12

I never understood this whole thing about candidates needing to excite us. They’re politicians. If you want something that excites you get an Aneros.
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Re: Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

Unread postby Derek » 15 January 2020, 04:23

Why shouldn't politics be capable of exciting us? Sanders, for instance, wants free healthcare and student debt forgiveness, policies which would have a huge and beneficial impact on most people's lives. Liberals have spent fifty years training themselves to think boring = serious = good, and have managed to preclude any progressive ideological campaign as a result. The reality is that any meaningful change requires passion and fervor, and in the absence of those we default to moneyed interests.
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Re: Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 15 January 2020, 05:11

Isn’t he second in the polls? And Warren third? Democrats certainly can’t be blamed for not producing “exciting” candidates of this sort.

Also, seeing you excited over free healthcare and debt forgiveness makes me uncomfortable. You’ve gone too far to the left. I want the libertarian-right Derek with ice in his veins who stole our hearts just to resell them shortly thereafter for a profit.
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Re: Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

Unread postby Derek » 15 January 2020, 06:53

poolerboy0077 wrote:Isn’t he second in the polls? And Warren third? Democrats certainly can’t be blamed for not producing “exciting” candidates of this sort.

There's a big difference between democratic primary voters, general voters, and the public at large. A lot of people don't like Bernie (and liberal establishments are extremely biased against him), but he's managed to break fundraising records relying only on small personal contributions and grassroots organizing, which as far as I know is unprecedented in American politics.

In any case, Bernie's star is rising and I have difficulty attributing Biden's place in the polls to anything other than boomer-brain-addled inertia.

Also, seeing you excited over free healthcare and debt forgiveness makes me uncomfortable. You’ve gone too far to the left.

I didn't say how I felt. I have mixed feelings about student debt forgiveness (college fucking sucks), but those are still populist positions that genuinely excite people.

I want the libertarian-right Derek with ice in his veins who stole our hearts just to resell them shortly thereafter for a profit.

...Why?
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Re: Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

Unread postby MattPSmith » 15 January 2020, 16:05

At the risk of being mobbed i see alot of obviously bad, racist, sexist, demonstrably terrible, offending world leaders etc!

I think we can all agree the man is a bafoon, but at the end of the day we shouldn't elect a leader based on likability.

Trump has proven his worth as a national leader, unemployment rates are low, job participation is high, average houshold income is up substantially, the economy is doing its best in what? 50 years?

Can anyone actually say why he is a bad leader besides simply attacking his personality?
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Re: Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 15 January 2020, 23:27

MattPSmith wrote:Can anyone actually say why he is a bad leader besides simply attacking his personality?

You seem to be under the impression that his “personality” comprising of his temperament, lack of knowledge, and severe lack of honesty and integrity haven’t impacted his conduct, such as...oh, just to list things off the top of my head his scandal in Ukraine, his spastic assassination of Soleimani leading even GOP congressmen to support a war powers bill to restrain him, abruptly abandoning Syrian Kurds, rolling back environmental protections including measures that aren’t even conservative and clearly just serve as a petty attack against the left, has nominated objectively incompetent judges including one 36-year-old who never tried a case in his life and had only practiced law for fewer than three years, uses his office to benefit himself financially...but yes, let’s focus solely on an economy that had been steadily growing since before he took office. Do us all a favor and visit a lobotomist in lieu of a polling booth.
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Re: Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

Unread postby MattPSmith » 16 January 2020, 04:06

Oh yeah, Ukraine. I forgot about that thing the president of Ukraine said didn't happen, then the democrats proceed to berate and belittle the foreign leader.

Soleimani, isn't that the guy who was directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans over the last decade by funding and helping train Hezbollah?

If you could expand on why trumps federal judge appointments are incompetent that would be great, calling them incompetent does not make it so.

How is he using his office for finacial gain?

What climate protections did he roll back?

hows syria going? That was was obama

Libya, Lebanon?

"We came, We saw, he died". Great leader she would have been, im sure she loves the open slave markets.

And for the record hillary has been oppsed to same sex marriage her ENTIRE career, that was until she needed popular support for the Democratic primary.

Donald trump is on record in support of it.

You may want me to get a lobotomy but i suspect it's just to secure safe votes for the election.
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Re: Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

Unread postby Sullivan » 18 January 2020, 05:20

MattPSmith wrote:What climate protections did he roll back?

He pulled the United States out of the Paris Agreement, for example.

Now imagine that I bothered typing up equally concise but compelling responses to your other points.
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Re: Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

Unread postby mxguy01 » 18 January 2020, 19:48

Like you have to look very hard:


US government opens California land to oil, gas drilling
October 4, 2019

LOS ANGELES (AP) — The federal government has opened 725,000 acres in Central California to oil and gas drilling on land that has been off-limits since 2013.

The Bureau of Land Management issued its final decision Friday to allow oil and gas leases on plots that are mostly in the Central Valley, but also include parts of the Central Coast.

The plan announced in May is part of a Trump administration goal to make the U.S. energy independent that has been criticized as a giveaway to industry.

Environmentalists who successfully blocked the Obama administration from opening the land to drilling criticized the new development.
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Re: Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

Unread postby MattPSmith » 19 January 2020, 02:48

The paris agreement was and is utterly pointless when something like 60% the worlds emissions come from China 60%+ of all solid ocean waste comes out of africa.

Why is it a bad thing that the US is not beholden to middle east oil? The US being energy independent means less money fueling the tensions in saudi Arabia, Syria IRAN etc.

Just fyi, im not American and as an outsider looking in, regardless of trumps horrid personality he is putting HIS nation and HIS peoples well-being first as all good leaders should.

For example Australian dairy farmers have been doing it very tough lately, a % of all profit from milk sold goes into a fund to help the farmers who are losing their livelihood, it is such a problem that politicians are criticizing supermarkets for not giving more, meanwhile the government just gave a contract to a french company to supply milk to all the hospitals within australia.

You should be happy you have a leader who isn't selling out your own people for profit, regardless of what the media says!
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Re: Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

Unread postby Derek » 19 January 2020, 03:56

MattPSmith wrote:The paris agreement was and is utterly pointless when something like 60% the worlds emissions come from China 60%+ of all solid ocean waste comes out of africa.

Most murders occur elsewhere in the world, so what does it matter if I murder?

The Paris agreement is the closest thing we have to an international climate treaty. Pulling out doesn't just implicate America, it undermines the entire process of trying to douse the flames the world will one day be engulfed in. Anything less than a full-bodied effort to combat climate change should be regarded as an existential threat.

Why is it a bad thing that the US is not beholden to middle east oil? The US being energy independent means less money fueling the tensions in saudi Arabia, Syria IRAN etc.

What do you think "energy independence" means for a country without significant oil reserves and a president who can't stop ranting about how much he hates windmills? A hint - it doesn't involve less money going to Saudi Arabia.

You should be happy you have a leader who isn't selling out your own people for profit, regardless of what the media says!

Oh yeah, I love having a president whose entire administration is staffed by billionaires. It's super great how America doesn't have the same social benefits and economic safety nets as every other rich nation and then the president comes on stage and tells us we need another ten trillion to fight the immigrant caravan. Every time he gets sued for fraud or tweets threats at a minor celebrity, I'm reminded of how deeply he holds my interests at heart. I am a filthy little piss pig and all I want in life is to have my balls stepped on.
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Re: Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

Unread postby MattPSmith » 19 January 2020, 12:37

Comparing the paris climate agreement to murder is a bit of a stretch. It was an arbitrary %reduction of emissions funded by billions of US dollars to support other nations not willing to make the financial commitments.

Proven oil reserves in the United States were 36.4 billion barrels (5.79×109 m3) of crude oil as of the end of 2014, excluding the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. The 2014 reserves represent the largest US proven reserves since 1972, and a 90% increase in proved reserves since 2008.[1] The Energy Information Administration estimates US undiscovered, technically recoverable oil resources to be an additional 198 billion barrels.

Yes, trump is a billionaire, so are some of his cabinet whats your point?

Obama was not a millionaire before taking office, now he is. Howd that happen?

Both obama and the clintons got paid millions of dollars to speak at investment firms, then proceeded to make decisions that enriched those firms, nothing suspicious there...

This whole Ukraine debacle stems from what exactly? Trump wanting ukrain to investigate burizma for paying joe bidens son 10's of 1000's of dollars a month to do what?

You claim trump is corrupt but the only politicians who are demonstrably corrupt are the ones you champion and the ones who have been talking about impeaching trump since BEFORE he even took office.

Im Australian i work as a manager for a supermarket im on a salary of 65k per year, that equates to roughly $31 dollars an hour, last year i paid around 15k in taxes, my tax return was $800. I have to pay for private insurance because my wife and i earn too much money to be covered by medicare (universal healthcare) that costs about 5k pa, because dental is considered cosmetic it costs a fucking fortune, i travel to the US once a year to have a proper dental check up, with the cost of the ticket hotel stay and dentist visit i break even but the level of care is so much better and any surprise work that needs doing is so much cheaper it is better for me to travel there then have it done here.

Our social safety net is a joke, people who refuse to work get free money, free housing free everything, while i work 42 hours weeks to fund them, while putting in atleast 12 hours of UNPAID overtime every week, because if they don't apply for work they don't get paid so they get a job that they never show up for and i can't fire them untill they either quit in writing or don't show up for 3 months because of regulations protecting the disenfranchised!

Grass is always greener though, hey?
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Re: Which of these two narratives do you think explains Trump's rise?

Unread postby Sullivan » 21 January 2020, 05:10

MattPSmith wrote:Im Australian

Of course you are.
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