Why do most gays vote democrat?

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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Derek » 23 March 2020, 19:52

Rym2018 wrote:The philosophy behind small government is the idea that the government’s duty to it citizens is to protect their life, liberty and property. Thus, any action of mine that harms others may be regulated by the government. So during a pandemic, if by the simple fact of going outside may put other people’s life in danger, a temporary quarantine order may be appropriate.

Either way, you're ceding the point that government intervention can benefit society. If it's appropriate to safeguard the common good in some cases, why not in others? Our society is filled with bad actors and exploitative systems, and drawing the line at "life, liberty and property" is a lazy attempt to disengage with that reality.

Now, to be philosophical consistent, where I think Civil rights went too far was where it banned discrimination by private people. Nonetheless, it only banned discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex or national origin. I can live with that.

That's the quintessential libertarian. Yes, these policies improved people's lives and helped ameliorate social injustices. No, I don't think they were a good idea.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Courage » 26 March 2020, 05:17

Rym2018 wrote:Shouldn’t the small government “stay out of my business” ideology of the republican party be more appealing for gays?

Lol you're kidding right? Republicans only want small government when it benefits their lobbyists with stocks in multi-million dollar industries. They voted against revoking tax credits for businesses that send labor overseas. They pass legislation that encourages monopolies. They want the government to intervene and criminalize gay marriage, abortion, etc.


Republicans are not anti-government, they're anti-everything but themselves.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 28 March 2020, 04:45

You know Derek, as Saul Berenson from Homeland once put it, you’re the smartest fucking person and the dumbest fucking person I’ve ever met. If you had played your cards right, you’d be rich off stupid schmucks watching your Ben Shapiro-esque YouTube videos “DESTROYING” your interlocutors with “FACTS” and “LOGIC” but instead you’re here, responding to dumbasses for free while weathering these worldwide economic and biological storms. You’re only beaten by Hunter who gives up his prime real estate body to dirty old German men in exchange for attention.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Derek » 28 March 2020, 05:15

In this metaphor, Hunter represents the white race, you're the liberal he's cucking, the gross old Germans are multiculturalism, and I'm the weeping Statue of Liberty from conservative cartoons.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 28 March 2020, 13:46

:lol:


:cry:
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Magic J » 28 March 2020, 19:56

poolerboy0077 wrote:If you had played your cards right, you’d be rich off stupid schmucks watching your Ben Shapiro-esque YouTube videos “DESTROYING” your interlocutors with “FACTS” and “LOGIC” but instead you’re here, responding to dumbasses for free while weathering these worldwide economic and biological storms.

I surprisingly had some success in convincing someone who'd gone deep down into Shapiro worship that he's a total fraud. Blindsided them by arguing that: even if we assume for the sake of argument that his ideas have some merit (they generally don't, but bear with me), his whole shtick is completely in bad faith. He supposedly wants to reach the Truth through rigorous application of LOGIC, but has an argumentative style with clearly suggests he's more interested in self-aggrandising and political grandstanding. He browbeats people with that weird, rapid fire tirade he does, and seems to have no intention of considering any other point of view to his own. Worse, he is supposedly concerned about the partisan tone of debate these days, and yet perpetuates it to a ridiculous degree, knowingly in my opinion. Also all the stupid, childish comments he makes on issues of race and the Israel Palestine conflict, but I was focusing on debating style. :P

Maybe I'm just too in love with the dialectical approach to argument, but it seems to work if everybody's willing. He doesn't do that. He's too in love with himself to ever think that anybody else could possibly disagree with him, and disagree with him firmly within the parameters of the logic he thinks himself an exemplar of.

God, he fucking irks me. I'm leaving this here because it makes me smile.



Soz for the ream of bile. Back to libertarianism, cake, and the intersections between them. :P
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Derek » 29 March 2020, 05:43

Anyone who makes their living as a conservative intellectual has to spend their life convincing themselves over and over that people deserve to suffer and it's pointless to work towards a better future. I have to imagine it rots you from in the inside out.

Point is, don't worry about Ben Shapiro, I'm sure he's suffering enough. Like, imagine spending the whole early part of your career defending the moral atrocities of the Iraq War, and then denouncing Trump when he comes along because he's so boorish and uncouth, and then he wins and you and the rest of the vampires who sold their souls to neoconservativism get called cucks and soy boys by people who are just one bad day away from banning Jews from their country clubs.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Severelius » 29 March 2020, 10:41

It depresses me that I have friends who genuinely think Ben Shapiro is some kind of intellectual powerhouse.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Magic J » 29 March 2020, 14:22

I usually try to explicit consider the new conservatism as distinct from old conservatism. I've read some philosophers and political theorists that are pretty conservative in outlook, and they have interesting perspectives on institutions, community, pessimism, religion, the nation, conservation, and capitalism (hell, there's plenty conservative critics of capitalism). I doubtlessly won't agree much, but I can imagine talking to them pretty easily, and would welcome doing so. There's things to learn from conservatism: for instance, that one should be wary of abstract political plans that don't take into account real people and real human behaviour. I don't see it as totally intellectually bankrupt.

But the current field of popular conservative "intellectuals"? Pretty barren, as you say. In the final stage of selling their souls to a rabid form of right populism, which, if I wanted to put forward a High Tory critique, is most unbecoming. :P The Spectator used to be a pretty good read, I hear; now it's just a slightly more urbane version of the Daily Mail.

Traditional High Conservatism ranks a little bit lower on the "Things I Disagree With" scale than Neoconservatism/Right Quasi-Libertarianism, is what I'm saying. :P Which might be a bit weird, since I've quite liberal instincts, but Neoconservatism is 1) the more dominant ideology, and 2) seems to attract racists, for some reason.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Derek » 29 March 2020, 20:17

Magic J wrote:But the current field of popular conservative "intellectuals"? Pretty barren, as you say.

That's not how I see it. The familiar "intellectual conservativism" we all know and love is the Buckleyesque kind of navel-gazey imperialism that jerks off on the pages of Burke's Reflections but is so fundamentally dishonest that they can't even admit to themselves that racism is the glue that holds it all together. The populist strain is, at the very least, honest. They don't have to effect that prissy elitist aesthetic to articulate the same goals.

Ben Shapiro is a great example of that. He came to work at Breitbart, a publications whose purpose is to stoke racial resentment in its white audience, and was only forced out when the simmering antisemitism reached a full boil, and he then proceeded to lament the death of the "proud intellectual traditions" that Breitbart himself once championed. It's a disgusting spectacle, but a clarifying one.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Severelius » 29 March 2020, 20:23

In the post-Tea Party world, the era of Donald Trump and Boris Johnson, I find the term 'intellectual conservatism' to be a fundamental oxymoron.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Magic J » 29 March 2020, 22:14

Derek wrote:That's not how I see it. The familiar "intellectual conservativism" we all know and love is the Buckleyesque kind of navel-gazey imperialism that jerks off on the pages of Burke's Reflections but is so fundamentally dishonest that they can't even admit to themselves that racism is the glue that holds it all together.

Apologies if I put words in your mouth. I'm afraid I'm not at all familiar with Buckley or American conservatism in general, so I'll have to defer here. I suppose the kind of conservatism I'm referring to is the kind of paternalistic, moralistic, and community cohesion focused Toryism that some British conservatives ascribe to (or pay lip service to, as is often the case). People like Disraeli, and Rory Stewart or Ken Clarke, for more modern examples of British politicians with a more intellectual bent. Its more communitarian elements always struck me as being a bit more substantive (a la, "we fortunate few have a duty to alleviate the suffering of the poor, since society is an organic whole only held together by our obligations to each other. Needless to say, we shall be staying here at the top of the pile").

Derek wrote:Ben Shapiro is a great example of that. He came to work at Breitbart, a publications whose purpose is to stoke racial resentment in its white audience, and was only forced out when the simmering antisemitism reached a full boil, and he then proceeded to lament the death of the "proud intellectual traditions" that Breitbart himself once championed. It's a disgusting spectacle, but a clarifying one.

In not entirely certain I'm reading you correctly, but would you say that conservatism, or at least conservatism in its current form, is so fundamentally tied to racist thinking as to be inextricable? I fear I'm being naive in thinking that there's a possible "better conservatism" which I could find more acceptable, and downplaying potentially inherent vices.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Derek » 29 March 2020, 23:04

I do think that racism and other forms of prejudice - homophobia, transphobia, islamophobia, xenophobia - are inextricably tied to conservativism as it exists today. Maybe those prejudices aren't inherently a part of the conservative worldview, but they are part of conservative politics in practice, and I don't think conservative parties could function without them.

This is what changed my political views. I used to identify as a libertarian and I tried spending time in those circles, but I could never stomach it because it was very apparent that the libertarian philosophy was just how people there rationalized their actual desires. It's one of those things that's just way different on paper than it is in reality.

That's why I have so much contempt for the anti-Trump conservatives. They hate him because he says the quiet parts loud. That's it. They want the same things, only they want to stroke themselves off doing it by pretending they're intellectuals and not just assholes.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Magic J » 29 March 2020, 23:23

Derek wrote:That's why I have so much contempt for the anti-Trump conservatives. They hate him because he says the quiet parts loud. That's it. They want the same things, only they want to stroke themselves off doing it by pretending they're intellectuals and not just assholes.

That's interesting. I think I've been working on the premise that many conservative politicians have been moving their policy further to the right in order to court voters who're moving to support the right's more deranged elements (the xenophobic, homophobic, etc. right), to stem the tide of people withdrawing their vote, whilst essentially holding their noses. That's understandable in some sense (i.e "we must focus on the real concerns of our voters"), but also terribly mistaken in others ("but we won't bother to challenge their xenophobia and illustrate that their anger is misdirected"). Probably because the anger might most aptly be directed at them, now that I think of it. Why bother to correct them? :shake:

Then again, we're liable to have pretty different experiences, what with living in entirely different countries. :P
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Derek » 29 March 2020, 23:43

Magic J wrote:Then again, we're liable to have pretty different experiences, what with living in entirely different countries. :P

Ours are two of the most similar countries on earth, and we're both deeply embarrassed by the comparison.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Brenden » 29 March 2020, 23:45

Derek wrote:
Magic J wrote:Then again, we're liable to have pretty different experiences, what with living in entirely different countries. :P

Ours are two of the most similar countries on earth, and we're both deeply embarrassed by the comparison.

The Netherlands is a lot more culturally similar to the United States.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Derek » 29 March 2020, 23:47

How so?
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Brenden » 29 March 2020, 23:55

Dutch and Americans share a kind of… entrepreneurial spirit. The business culture is similar. The Netherlands is like one large suburban business park, like the outskirts of Detroit where all the companies are based and white-collar workers live. The Netherlands is basically America + cute language - inner cities.

France and Germany are also more like America in a lot of ways than Britain.

I think people seem to think just because the language is the same the countries must be very similar, but they most certainly are not.

You really get this when you drive around them a lot. It’s the way strip malls, shopping centres, business parks, industrial parks, suburbs, etc are laid out. Very, very different in the UK but quite similar in the Netherlands.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Magic J » 30 March 2020, 00:10

If I wanted to have a stab at an essential difference, I'd say that US Americans are perhaps more liable to agree with a statement like "You get what you deserve in life" than Brits. I get the impression than there's less cultural emphasis on, or recognition of, luck and fortune as regards to an individual's life trajectory in the US. More emphasis on personal responsibility and bootstraps and such, which might lend a different tone to its conservatism.

However, I can't seem to find any of the polls, but I remember seeing some which suggest that Brits may be coming round to a more American way of thinking here. Assuming those polls are being interpreted correctly, I don't see this as a particularly positive development.

Brenden could probably provide comment. :P
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Sullivan » 30 March 2020, 01:34

Magic J wrote:More emphasis on personal responsibility and bootstraps and such, which might lend a different tone to its conservatism.

All of that personal responsibility nonsense you can literally trace right back to, like, the Tudor Poor Laws and Protestant Reformation bullshit though. In other words, it's a deeply embedded meme in American culture, because we inherited it from you.

But I do think you're getting at a valid difference. I'd just frame it in terms of the fact that Great Britain's is a self-consciously class society, whereas most Americans have been effectively brainwashed into believing that ours is not.

I'm also not really buying the idea that Britain and the US are so different when there's a clear case to be made that the political cultural and politico-economic revolutions of the 1980s—in whose long shadows we still live—at least started out as peculiarly Anglosphere phenomena.
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