Why do most gays vote democrat?

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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Magic J » 30 March 2020, 01:49

Sullivan wrote:All of that personal responsibility nonsense you can literally trace right back to, like, the Tudor Poor Laws and Protestant Reformation bullshit though. In other words, it's a deeply embedded meme in American culture, because we inherited it from you.

Oh yeah, absolutely. I'm not doing a "Britain best, USA sucks" thing. I'm just not that nationalistic. I ain't Britain, I'm just a guy. :P

Sullivan wrote:I'm also not really buying the idea that Britain and the US are so different when there's a clear case to be made that the political cultural and politico-economic revolutions of the 1980s—in whose long shadows we still live—at least started out as peculiarly Anglosphere phenomena.

Agreed. I think you probably highlighted a difference in content, though: There's a strong current of anger against Thatcherite/Neoliberal policy in Britain, and it's common to hear those grievances expressed in class terms, whilst I'm not so sure that's the case in the US. I've never lived in the US, though, so you'd be better placed to say.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby René » 30 March 2020, 09:07

Magic J wrote:Oh yeah, absolutely. I'm not doing a "Britain best, USA sucks" thing. I'm just not that nationalistic. I ain't Britain, I'm just a guy. :P

One of the biggest differences always seems to me to be that so many Americans genuinely think their country is "number 1" and the best place to live in the whole world (delusional and objectively false by any number of measures), whereas in my experience with people from Britain, having moved here from abroad and lived in 4 towns in various parts of England and Scotland, when you get their opinion on where they live, they tend to think it's just "okay" or "pretty shit actually" and say things like "Why would you want to come live here?" :lol:

You also don't see the country's flag all over the place here.

British people often seem to actually think of the US as a nicer place to live, until you start pointing out things like how good healthcare is here compared to the atrocity that passes for healthcare in the US and how minuscule the risk of dying from violent crime is here and you start getting some "I guess we often don't realise how good we have it here and take things like that for granted"-type comments. I've often felt like I was prouder to live here than many of the natives. :P
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby erti » 30 March 2020, 09:19

America has been behind on social issues for quite some time.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Brenden » 30 March 2020, 09:21

Sullivan wrote:
Magic J wrote:More emphasis on personal responsibility and bootstraps and such, which might lend a different tone to its conservatism.

All of that personal responsibility nonsense you can literally trace right back to, like, the Tudor Poor Laws and Protestant Reformation bullshit though. In other words, it's a deeply embedded meme in American culture, because we inherited it from you.

But religion for the large part in the United Kingdom ended up settling on a "via media" manifest in the Anglican Church. Let's not forget the Puritans left Tudor England because it wasn't conservative/Protestant enough, and after a stint in the more conservative/Protestant Netherlands, eventually settled in New England.

Sullivan wrote:But I do think you're getting at a valid difference. I'd just frame it in terms of the fact that Great Britain's is a self-consciously class society, whereas most Americans have been effectively brainwashed into believing that ours is not.

:werd:

Sullivan wrote:I'm also not really buying the idea that Britain and the US are so different when there's a clear case to be made that the political cultural and politico-economic revolutions of the 1980s—in whose long shadows we still live—at least started out as peculiarly Anglosphere phenomena.

They're not that different, but as someone who's experienced the three cultures quite a bit, the Netherlands and the US are much, much more similar. At least if you compare White American society to Dutch society.

You can even see this in the way they both reformed their healthcare systems — Obamacare and the (post-2006) Dutch system are pretty much identical in nature, only the Dutch system is more generous. Very business-friendly, distributing public money through insurance companies and private hospitals, who are all taking cuts.


I was actually going to respond to Magic pointing out how Britain came around to the American way of thinking during Thatcher's reign.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Magic J » 30 March 2020, 09:42

René wrote:One of the biggest differences always seems to me to be that so many Americans genuinely think their country is "number 1" and the best place to live in the whole world (delusional and objectively false by any number of measures), whereas in my experience with people from Britain, having moved here from abroad and lived in 4 towns in various parts of England and Scotland, when you get their opinion on where they live, they tend to think it's just "okay" or "pretty shit actually" and say things like "Why would you want to come live here?" :lol:

The standard phase one uses when asked to describe their hometown is "shitehole". I guess familiarity breeds contempt. :P There's a bit of a dourness in people, but it's often a "I can call the place terrible, but if you happen to agree, then I'll defend it as the greatest place on earth" kind of thing, usually with tongue in cheek. I don't know many die hard patriots, personally. The nastier nationalistic element is growing, however.

The national healthcare system is one of the few things that people rally around as a national icon, which is not bad as national icons go.

To be clear for interested foreigners, Britain certainly has its problems. Alcoholism and hard drug addiction has been a major problem, in Scotland at least, for ages. Sectarianism and knife crime were bad in Glasgow, though much reduced these days (for now). Scotland manages to avoid the Forgotten North effect since it largely controls its own budget, but Northern England positively seethes at the way policy is often focused on London and the South-East, often with good reason. England is having an identity crisis, Scotland's livid at another Tory government, Northern Ireland remains terrifying, and Wales is still poor from the time they told the miners to get on their bikes go fuck themselves.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Magic J » 30 March 2020, 12:02

erti wrote:America has been behind on social issues for quite some time.

I imagine it must be surprising for Americans to see how "unconservative" our Conservative ("Tory") party is on many issues: pro marriage equality (indeed, they legalised it), pro-choice (with some caveats), pro-socialised medicine (every major party is), and pro-strict gun control (a progressive position in the US, but again, every party is here). Wasn't always the case, Britain, and Scotland especially, was known to be a pretty socially conservative place when it came to things like lgbt rights, and that conservatism was espoused by the Tories and Labour (left-of -centre party). The acceptance of lgbt people has been a rapid shift. I imagine it's the same sort of surprise that I always felt when US commentators would decry pretty mild social democratic reform as "Communism". :P

It's reasonably liberal in comparison, is what I'm saying. It's becoming less so, though. Our recent Tory party generally got its demerits for economic reasons (their "austerity" policies put in place after 2008), and also their willingness to sell bombs to governments who use them to commit war crimes.

Oh, also their callousness in deporting people who's lived here for near their entire lives.

Oh, oh, also presided over a widening of inequality that's led to a lowering of life expectancy for the first time in decades.

I'll stop now. :P
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Brenden » 31 March 2020, 00:53

One positive effect of the pandemic is it may decimate conservatives in a kind of mass Darwin Awards situation.

The Social-Distancing Culture War Has Begun
[…] Frost, a 43-year-old Democrat, told me the club’s mix of younger liberals and older conservatives had always gotten along just fine—but the guidelines were proving divisive.

At the driving range, while Frost and his like-minded friends slathered on hand sanitizer and kept six feet apart, the white-haired Republicans seemed to delight in breaking the new rules. They made a show of shaking hands, and complained loudly about the “stupid hoax” being propagated by virus alarmists. When their tee times were up, they piled defiantly into golf carts, shoulder to shoulder, and sped off toward the first hole.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby acpro » 31 March 2020, 02:50

Brenden wrote:One positive effect of the pandemic is it may decimate conservatives in a kind of mass Darwin Awards situation.

The Social-Distancing Culture War Has Begun
[…] Frost, a 43-year-old Democrat, told me the club’s mix of younger liberals and older conservatives had always gotten along just fine—but the guidelines were proving divisive.

At the driving range, while Frost and his like-minded friends slathered on hand sanitizer and kept six feet apart, the white-haired Republicans seemed to delight in breaking the new rules. They made a show of shaking hands, and complained loudly about the “stupid hoax” being propagated by virus alarmists. When their tee times were up, they piled defiantly into golf carts, shoulder to shoulder, and sped off toward the first hole.



I was just talking about this!! Some of the hardest hit areas right now, outside of NYC, are places where people continuously vote against their own interests or are one issue voters....like the south or Louisiana. I wouldn't wish death upon anyone but these people have caused plenty of death with their voting and bullying.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Magic J » 31 March 2020, 16:46

Brenden wrote:
article wrote:...calls to reopen the economy—even if it means sacrificing the sick and elderly—are gaining traction.

:gaping:

I must declare an interest. Plz no.
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby John27 » 3 April 2020, 21:48

Magic J wrote:I imagine it must be surprising for Americans to see how "unconservative" our Conservative ("Tory") party is on many issues: pro marriage equality (indeed, they legalised it), pro-choice (with some caveats), pro-socialised medicine (every major party is), and pro-strict gun control (a progressive position in the US, but again, every party is here).


It might be surprising for some, but it's not totally surprising for me. I consistently hear that our politics are actually pretty conservative, particularly on economic issues. It's often a choice between "conservative Democrat" and "far out conservative Republican."

Kyle Kulinski, a progressive commentator, has even said that by American standards, he's on the left, but he's a centrist by the standards of other countries.

This is not new. Someone in the Clinton administration said it wasn't hard dealing with Conservatives, because they fell, he thought, within the "range" of Democrats in that era. (And the Clinton era is the point when I think Democrats made the shift right to "Republican Lite".)
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Re: Why do most gays vote democrat?

Unread postby Magic J » 3 April 2020, 22:42

John27 wrote:This is not new. Someone in the Clinton administration said it wasn't hard dealing with Conservatives, because they fell, he thought, within the "range" of Democrats in that era. (And the Clinton era is the point when I think Democrats made the shift right to "Republican Lite".)

A similar and concurrent story with the British Labour Party under Blair's New Labour. NL swung party policy to favour a more marketised economy, rejecting public ownership of certain infrastructure, and downplaying traditional Labour goals such as the reduction of wealth inequality. Barely even warranting the name "socialist", which at any rate, was a term New Labour generally dropped from its publications. The Conservative Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher is known to have replied to the question "what do you consider your greatest achievement as PM" by simply stating "New Labour". Grim.

And thus we arrive at the current situation.

EDIT: Just realised that "current situation" is a bit vague. Current situation as in the state of Britain's politics, not the ongoing pandemic. New Labour has many sins, but we can't blame them for COVID.

Or can we? #corbynwillriseagain :P
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