Need Advice On Long-Term Friendship/Hook Up Situation

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Need Advice On Long-Term Friendship/Hook Up Situation

Unread postby lostinspace94 » 11 November 2018, 22:19

Have outlined the situation and welcome your thoughts / questions. I will call one guy AA and one guy BB, to remove any biases.

Year 1 of interaction:
AA was visiting the country on a seminar for his Masters. BB messaged AA through Grindr, convinced him to come over after some "flirty" chat, BB is top only and AA claims he is top but agrees to blow BB. When he comes over, they kiss/AA sucks BB then AA asks BB to top him as he finds AA and the sex hot. BB does. At the end, they exchange FB messenger / whatsapp also and chat daily (typically sex related stuff and a long enough conversation) because AA flies back to his country.

A few months later, AA is interviewing for a few jobs in the country BB is in. AA is planning to stay in a hostel for the day after his interviews, BB offers him to stay over at his. AA says they should get dinner and BB should book a table. BB has never 'dated' so asks AA where he wants to eat. BB books accordingly. They have dinner, chat, all normal. When they get to BB's house, they chat a little, AA reiterates how tired he is, so BB wishes him good night. AA initiates kissing, BB asks I thought you were tired, AA is saying 'never for this but I am too tired for anal' and they kiss and oral. BB can't cum as he is mentally confused. They laugh it off, sleep together, wake up the next morning and AA offers BB to come with him around the city before his flight. BB agrees. AA flies back to his country in the evening and they continue to chat daily.

In one of these chats, AA tells BB that he was 'not sure' when they first met, but he was glad they banged because it was hot. AA says he never sleeps with anyone darker than BB (BB initiates the 'colour' convo) just by personal preference but glad he met BB.

Also during one of these chats, AA says BB should come to AA's country for holiday. BB offers to come over his Birthday period and the weekend is booked by BB in a fancy airbnb for AA and BB to spend together (earlier in the same flat as AA stays, just in a separate room, again booked through airbnb as per AA's suggestion). AA picks BB up from the airport, and takes him to his place and tells him that he has got an internship in BB's country. AA starts kissing BB saying he missed him. They have dinner (AA booked the table) and then AA has class the next day early (the night of BB's birthday) so they kiss quickly and sleep in their own beds. The next morning AA has an itinerary for BB so he is not bored while AA is in the class. AA drops BB to the train station and kisses him on the lips in public. BB is confused about all this so once AA comes back, before the birthday dinner, he asks him upfront if there is an 'us'. AA almost freaks out saying the following points basically: he is not out to even his family, so not looking; he thought they were just having fun and i was just looking for that; the 'nice' things done are not 'nice' they are 'normal' and BB must know/have really crap people in his life if he thought any of the above was a signal; AA explains he has been in relationships before and they require high investment (BB hasn't) which he doesn't do unless he is in love with the person and he is not in love with BB; his view on love is instant so if it doesn't happen now it won't happen; their locations are far apart so how would it even work; they met as a hookup not a date and they don't convert; but wants to be close friends and perhaps they shouldn't sleep together and chat daily as it confused things. BB starts to wonder if its something physical like his skin colour (relating to the comment above) which AA says 'no you are hot' to.

BB leaves to a hotel to get some space. Invites AA to speak a bit more the next day as he is still confused about the 'signals' dropped. AA says they should remain friends, keep in touch via messenger but less often, not sleep together anymore, get a coffee when AA is in BB's country and go from there. BB agrees. BB asks if he read the signals wrong and AA says he was being immature and sorry for that. BB cancels the "romantic weekend airbnb". Once BB is in his home country, BB offers help finding AA a place to stay in BB's country, including his own place if nothing works out. AA thanks him for the help, finds something though elsewhere and takes it.

A few months later, AA comes to BB's country, they never meet though. AA finds reasons not to meet BB over the summer, with a huge apology at the end (could be genuine, AA was working in a bank). AA does not get the offer of the job, therefore flies back to his country permanently. AA and BB have not met in person since, only written chat has been exchanged.

Year 2 of interaction:
Messages between AA and BB are still exchanged on FB messenger, lower frequency, but bi-weekly at the least. Content typically included updates in life in general (work, travel, other guys they are dating/banging, pics /articles of hot guys, other random chat). During this time AA comes 'out' to his family who support him.

Year 2.5 of interaction:

Messages from AA to BB are less frequent (typically once monthly, sometimes more). Typically 'Oh hi' or 'Sorry I have been really busy...' is the starting point of AA's message. The content of the messages from AA are also much smaller. At one point AA leaves 3 reasonably detailed voice messages. BB offers alternatives to try to aid the busy lifestyle of AA e.g. a call, AA says FB messenger is only used to contact BB and that whatsapp is flooded with messages so the conversation would get lost etc. In some of the conversation there are 'contradictions' e.g. AA claims he almost dated a hookup he had, one guy he loved and was with for 3 months (and they were exclusive) told AA he is not ready for a relationship or wanting more which broke AA's heart and he went into counseling etc.
AA says to BB why doesn't he come over for new year and they can see the fireworks. BB replies with an airbnb suggestion asking if it is any good given the location (as BB has never gone there). AA doesn't reply for 2 months (still hasn't to the message about the airbnb).
BB also generally senses a disinterest from AA (lack of reading FB messages, etc) so emails and asks upfront if BB actually wants to continue chatting / be friends as BB doesn't understand how they can be friends if they only chat so occasionally.

Recently:
AA replies saying: he doesn't think he can sustain the friendship at the level BB is expecting, AA has a large number of commitments, apologies for the lack of messages and claims its a genuine bandwidth issue, AA claims he has a large number of distance friends / with varying relationships, that they should know if they call on him he will be there but they don't speak regularly (maybe once every 4-6 months), and if they are in the same place they try to meet up. He says to BB they can schedule a FaceTime call and catchup every few months which avoids having to write long messages but allows them to connect.

Here are the 2 views I see:
AA - it sounds like if the job worked out in BB's country, they could have grown closer. Maybe AA genuinely wants a friendship, but like everyone has 'higher' priorities now in life, so cannot continue messaging etc, as in reality they won't be together so no point over-investing in this relationship. The call (face call also, not just a quick recorded call) is a suggestion he does want to know BB better but they won't become close enough if chatting bi-monthly which is also his preference.
BB - cannot seem to decide if AA is genuinely busy and wants the friendship, doesn't actually want a friendship and the face call is to see if he still finds BB hot enough to bone when they are together / keep him on the leash so to speak just incase AA needs something i.e. visits BB's country or something else as the signals are all over the place. Or is he being manipulated, but why, there is nothing to gain?

Thoughts?
Last edited by lostinspace94 on 12 November 2018, 09:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Need Advice On Long-Term Friendship/Hook Up Situation

Unread postby Marmaduke » 11 November 2018, 22:35

My prevailing thoughts are that a third-person narrative combined with all the AA BB nonsense makes this story really difficult to engage with and read to the end, and that calling the characters Chris and James - for instance - would have been just as useful in this context at hiding the fact that you are BB. Unless you were worried that we have irrational biases towards certain names and would instantly side with Chris once we learned your name was James, irrespective of the facts.

As for something more related to the sort of advice you were hoping to hear, you have found yourself well and truly in the friend zone I’m afraid. You want more, he doesn’t and the distance makes the gap almost impossible for you to get what you want. Romantically, you need to move on. Some distance may help you get there. Maybe allow this conversation to naturally wind down for a little while and see how you feel about picking it up again in a few weeks or so.
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Re: Need Advice On Long-Term Friendship/Hook Up Situation

Unread postby lostinspace94 » 12 November 2018, 08:59

Good point about using actual names.
Shall I edit the post?

What are your thoughts on the situation though? Do you think there is malice or genuinity from both sides that is?

It doesn’t matter if I am AA or BB or which ‘side’ is taken, I just want to understand both.
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Re: Need Advice On Long-Term Friendship/Hook Up Situation

Unread postby Eryx » 13 November 2018, 03:00

From my personal point of view, he's just not interested in keeping the friendship alive because of the distance and the difficulties that entails. I had a couple LDRs when I was younger, one of which was actually pretty promising, but the distance was insurmountable and I just realized I wouldn't be able to sustain that.

So, basically, when I'm with someone and that someone wants to leave the country or move to a different city, I lose interest because I plan to spend my next few years here and I'm incompatible with an LDR.

The rejection could be about skin color, but I don't think it's all tied to that. A kiss in public can be just a way to say goodbye. Maybe he did just want the sex. Plus if he prefers being a top, just enjoys being a bottom sometimes depending on who he's with, it might be a reason he didn't see a real future there.

But yeah, there were mixed signals and he seemed confused a few times. From his recent behavior, however, I'd just let the friendship die out and focus on more attainable people/opportunities.
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Re: Need Advice On Long-Term Friendship/Hook Up Situation

Unread postby lostinspace94 » 13 November 2018, 08:45

Thanks for your input. Note, this isn't really a LDR (like a long distance bf situation) as they were never bf's. But I'm assuming by LDR you are implying any kind of relationship. Also on the top/bottom aspect, AA was not out when meeting BB hence probably quite inexperienced hence the 'top but bottom when it suits him'. I am not sure if AA's preferences have changes, from what I know BB is still top only.

From AA's perspective:
I get the distance is hard to overcome. Also, why would you invest in something that won't 'generate a return' per say, as neither will be in eachother's country anymore (since AA didn't get the job offer in BB's country, which may explain why he kept the relationship alive, but then died off once he realised he wouldn't be in BB's country, but that is basically 'using' no?). AA is also now not studying, but working, so priorities have changes - he is an adult now per say.

From BB's perspective:
When they originally chatted, they were both in separate countries, and there was daily communication. So that was the "benchmark" per say. But that could be explained by the reasoning above (potential job offer for AA). If AA 'just wanted the sex' then why come back for more, keep chatting, basically go on a holiday together etc? Doesn't add up. BB is used to having guys vanish if they don't want more so this is strange for BB.
When BB sees his pics on FB or otherwise, he doesn't feel 'romantic' with him or 'jealous' if he has a bf etc. For BB it was more of a bromance, which was confused with a romantic relationship because of the way AA was behaving (no jocks for example randomly kiss eachother and say I miss you for example) hence BB clarified when he did. Further now AA claims he meets his friends when they are in the same country, but when AA came back that year, he never met BB, hence the whole current response seems a bit off.
BB is now thinking, perhaps they actually took the relationship the wrong way. Instead of chatting and trying to be close friends, which clearly is too hard because of various restrictions, it would have been better to meet up in gay cruises or holidays, bang randoms together or bang eachother if they can't find someone, and keep it as a 'locker room sports jock' relationship only (which is ultimately how they met and their initial relationship, with the odd bit of conversation thrown in).
The true reason why BB is still wanting this to last is no other gay friend relationship has lasted for him. BB sleeps around a lot, but none stick. So for BB this is the first time someone has 'stuck' from a 'keeping in touch' sense who is also gay (BB has many straight friends). When BB has had 'more' with other guys, he almost forgets about AA, so it seems AA is more a 'safety net' for BB when BB is alone per say. BB basically can trust AA like a bro, but given the circumstances I don't think there can be a full blown relationship there anyway.

Do you think BB should propose that they meet for such holidays (now that they are both out and settled in work etc), and chat in person there, maybe the odd call to organise the trip, but basically come out of this 'friend' zone as it doesn't seem to be working (given also how they met). If the answer is still no from AA then clearly he is not interested in any kind of relationship and then they should part ways I think, because bi-monthly calls I don't think will develop anything, it would just be a facebook update lol. Out of interest, AA specifically asked for a facetime call, not just a random call, why?
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Re: Need Advice On Long-Term Friendship/Hook Up Situation

Unread postby Eryx » 13 November 2018, 13:11

When I said LDR I didn't mean necessarily a closed relationship, just a relationship, no labels included. I'm gonna call AA and BB James and Chris like Marmaduke suggested because it's really annoying to follow the story on those, sorry!

So, I don't think James was using Chris by reaching out to him and making some moves. I think he might have just been confused and actually into Chris a bit, but those feelings can go away and they go away quickly when there's distance involved. When things are fresh we can go from intense to nothing really fast, and not being able to see each other physically during that time doesn't really help.

So maybe James did feel something, but since he wasn't out and perfectly comfortable with himself yet (not having the courage to expose his sexuality, not being sure if he's only a top or versatile, not knowing where he might end up or if he actually wants to date), he might have just distanced himself from Chris so as not to hurt him in case he changed his mind and because he was insecure about what he really wanted. When James realized he wouldn't be able to live close to Chris, it became easier for the interest to fade, and keeping a friendship like that online takes some energy.

Since Chris was a little more confident in himself and what was happening, he interpreted the signs (in my opinion, correctly) and invested in the relationship that was forming, which is perfectly fine. But James wasn't ready for that, so when Chris tries to get closer again, James is still afraid that's an attempt to take it to the next level. Even if Chris explains that he's only looking for friendship, James will still think he wants more (trust me, I've been there). That's probably why he's taking steps to keep the physical distance and not lead Chris on in any way.

I also think that Chris should probably start looking more broadly at the gay guys when it comes to friendship. I think we fetishize the whole bro thing too much. If he were willing to become friends with any gay guy, feminine or masculine, big or small, his type or not, he'd probably be able to have a social circle with gay people and wouldn't feel so lonely when it comes to talking about this stuff. Coming out helps a lot as well. Bro friendships can only go so far, and when that's a necessary characteristic, it tends to not go much further than being friends with a regular straight guy. But those are just my 2 cents, I've never been a closeted bro so I might not know what I'm talking about.
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Re: Need Advice On Long-Term Friendship/Hook Up Situation

Unread postby lostinspace94 » 15 November 2018, 09:07

All fair points.

First, both are out, I guess you meant James wasn’t fully at the time he met Charles?

Second, given how they met, I think Charles’ expectation was they would be ‘holiday gay friends’ vs ‘besties’ (Charles said he hates traveling alone and James would always say he is up for it just needed the money lol) but because James was signalling more Charles was confused. Given Charles hadn’t had a FWB before James (only one night stands despite trying for more) this was new territory. It was indeed unknown at the time whether Charles and James would be in the same country or not given the flux with the job situation, but obviously now that will not happen.

Therefore I thought Charles’ best option is to basically ask if they can ‘go back’ to what was originally planned for them ie organise these gay holidays, do eachother if they want but do other guys but at least be there for each other vs going alone. That would also avoid this conversation back/forth which tbh Charles was only keeping up because he doesn’t have other gay friends (when a few others kept up the conversation locally it was easy for him to detach from James and ‘move over’ but none of those lasted so naturally he ‘moves back’).

I agree with your point about Charles needing more gay friends. The issue I know for Charles is that (not as an excuse but) where he lives is full of ‘visiting’ guys and/or anyone he ‘clicks’ with basically leaves the country. Grindr hookups are easy but basically a repeat rarely happens for whatever reason and a date is completely out of the picture despite him offering to grab a beer or something with a guy. Hence James acts as a mental safety net to Charles per say.

James is still young, single, now likely to actually enjoy these ‘gay holiday experiences’ since he is more comfortable with who he is, but Charles is unsure if he has filled that gap also with others at this point hence it’s worth asking. The most recent message seems to imply no, otherwise why offer FaceTime calls and/or to even keep communication going. The latest message seems to indicate no space for a ‘bestie’ which Charles never intentend on being anyway but just went down that path because that’s what James claims he wanted for them (maybe out of confusion).

My personal opinion is letting this fade given the circumstances intentionally is not wise. If there is still no effort from James then it will fade from Charles’ side too but at the moment it seems too early for this. If there was absolutely nothing there I don’t think it would have dragged out this long but maybe I am wrong.
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Re: Need Advice On Long-Term Friendship/Hook Up Situation

Unread postby mxguy01 » 15 November 2018, 21:38

AA, BB, Charlie, Jack, John, Jill, the bean stalk... Oh how we over-complicate things and just make them more confusing. Perhaps that is the problem, you are complicating a situation far beyond what you should be. Being open and honest with others and also with yourself will go a long way. AA and BB should be the ones discussing the issue. Or is it Charlie and Jack... I'm too confused over this all.
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Re: Need Advice On Long-Term Friendship/Hook Up Situation

Unread postby lostinspace94 » 22 November 2018, 08:31

Any other viewpoints on this?
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Re: Need Advice On Long-Term Friendship/Hook Up Situation

Unread postby lostinspace94 » 1 January 2019, 01:17

Need some further input on the situation please...

James says to Charles that he should come for New Years (in Autumn time). Charles agrees it would be fun, asks James should he send an airbnb, James replies saying to send it and they can work something out in terms of dates, Charles sends a link asking James if its okay in terms of distance to the fireworks etc and gets no response from James (not even read the messages).

Charles then emails James asking what is happening regarding communication in general as the lack of communication seems strange (which has been outlined above). Charles also asked James specifically what he is looking for in this relationship / correspondence which has not been addressed still. James replies a month later basically saying he can't sustain the friendship at the level Charles wants and suggests they have facetime calls every few months vs typing long replies (there is no mention of the airbnb on the email btw). Charles emails back agreeing to the calls, also clarifying he is looking for a holiday buddy in general, not a bf, just someone he knows who he can chill with but also "gay" so they can go on "gay specific" holidays. Charles also says if money etc is an issue, he can fly there given its summer during winter months, and if it is "weird" they can try 1 short weekend type holiday like this then see how both feel about further holidays. Charles also says that its completely fine to not message eachother daily - that is not what he meant by friendship - but also it is a lot easier to just connect in person and therefore is suggesting these "short breaks". Charles also says if he feels this friendship / communication is a burden or anything, or if he did only want to be with him physically for a bit and nothing more (but the friendship was just out of being nice), then just say and we can call it a day, just be true to what James wants. Charles finally explains that if James does want to try the holiday thing, there is no expectation of anything from Charles' side - it is only an accompanying holiday - so to not take it the wrong way or think James is leading Charles on. Charles is still awaiting a reply for 2+ months.

What is odd for Charles is James' rather "schizo" behaviour / replies. For example, James claims in his email to be busy with his work / local friends therefore unable to reply, yet James managed to plan a holiday with another friend from abroad (they have known eachother and visited eachother less times than Charles and James for example) so clearly he has time if he wants to make time. Then, James has posted pictures of him basically in "gay pool parties" with a gay friend from abroad (that he has known for 2 years ish) so James clearly has the time and interest in such activities and is not "hiding" or anything and clearly not "that busy". It seems strange to write the opposite of what you post, probably thinking that Charles is not seeing the posts or something (despite them being public lol). The lies / inconsistency is what is bothering Charles vs James himself. Further, in James' email, James writes that all his friends know they can call on him when they need something, but they don't communicate daily. Yet when Charles is 'calling on him' i.e. asking for something, he is vanishing / not replying for months. If long distance relationships are really that hard for James, then why is every other guy James posts pics with from aboard lol.

I know the general advice is Charles should call quits and leave this but Charles wants to understand James' behaviour as seems strange, as Charles is not seeing what he is doing / saying wrong here. Charles has been told by some guys they have a bf, or another 'legit' reason to 'break it off' and he has always been fine with it and quickly let go, but in this case there is no reason or explanation, and it seems like James is half dragging this out also by throwing "lifelines" e.g. the calls. Why not just end it completely if not genuinely interested? If there is nothing to gain from Charles, what is James doing?
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Re: Need Advice On Long-Term Friendship/Hook Up Situation

Unread postby lostinspace94 » 8 January 2019, 12:15

Bump
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