Not gay but...

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Re: Not gay but...

Unread postby Brenden » 12 January 2020, 18:10

exalted wrote:Okay, im back and firstly brenden fuck you (thats from kim)

I'd say fuck her back, but it seems she does all the fucking. :shrug:
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Re: Not gay but...

Unread postby Eryx » 13 January 2020, 17:21

Well, you said she's above average so that's probably why you're so sore lol. It gets easier as you go.
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Re: Not gay but...

Unread postby JoelR » 15 January 2020, 00:29

Brenden wrote:I think it's weird that a MTF transexual would want to have penetrative anal sex using her penis, and I think it's gross that they would expect a heterosexual to just be okay with it. I bet if you refused she'd call you transphobic, too. It's a bit rape-y, in fact.


But film it so we can judge the rape-ness of it, kkthx
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Re: Not gay but...

Unread postby homomorphism » 15 January 2020, 02:41

Brenden wrote:I think transsexualism, when not linked to actual genetic and physical disorders such as intersex people have, is as suspect a concept as transracialism. Michael Jackson needed therapy, not race-affirming plastic surgery!

Derek wrote:Do you deny the lived experiences of all the trans people who have credited their transition with giving them a shot at living a fulfilled life?

I think they can certainly think that, especially in an atmosphere that affirms that thought. I don't blame them for that or seeking out what they think (perhaps misguidedly) is the best course of action for dealing with their mental disorder.

I've noticed on the LGBT subreddit many posts about finding and sharing details of doctors who just prescribe hormone therapy with no psychiatric questions asked. I suffer from body dysmorphic disorder, which is like dysphoria, and if there were a pill I could pop that people said would make my body look the way I want it to look, I'd certainly be tempted, even if there were many side effects and potential unknown consequences. It does seem like the path of least resistance.


What position are you in to be making these claims? It doesn't look like you're citing anything and just preemptively responding to anything in the literature on the subject with unsubstantiated claims like

New scientific/medical studies are not being done for fear of the label. Old ones are suppressed. Biological truth is being swept under the rug.


Which I guess means that you think an extremely at-risk minority population has somehow managed to infiltrate a variety of political, medical, scientific, and sociological fields to make the climate hostile towards any study critical to trans* identities. You're just some not-particularly-successful guy who's been working on a degree for just shy of forever and have absolutely no working knowledge of...any of these fields. So if there's like a magazine you read or an op-ed piece or something that you want to cite, that'd be cool. Otherwise, it just seems like you're being a dick about this to inflate your sense of self-worth.
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Re: Not gay but...

Unread postby GearFetTwinkRomance » 15 January 2020, 05:45

I happen to know 3 adult Transident people, one of them had sex reassignment surgery so far, and as far as I would see this, they have gone through a history of imposed and acquired mental issues because of having been pathologized and rejected, mobbed when they were very young. It seems to be the usual way for them, not having the choice of whether to grow up in an unburdened and rather happy way.
In one of my acquaintances I found an example of how people can practically destroy someone by ongoing harassment and to treat them as if they were some unwanted freak. I think in this compare, my own experiences in rejection and being bullied were vanishingly low, and it was not just a bit of the common.

I know that science and psychiatry would treat the subject rather in ways that support certain concepts of mental disorders. They would keep on doing this also with things like homosexuality, if that can serve their purposes, and they will find new ways to diagnose the yet considered "healthy" or non problem types of personality, as long as it would seem to make help programmes work. There are some new disorders found every couple years, too.
Even with body dysmorphic disorder I would doubt everyone diagnosed would be really suffering from the disorder. Some just suffer from a dysmorphic type of body, and it's good there's plastic surgery to help such people. For example this man in China, although he would be an extreme case of certain tumors:
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Most cases that take advantage of plastic surgery are rather usual nose jobs, port-wine stain removal, moles and warts, that like, penniculus removal, smaller boobs, bigger boobs, that sort of thing.

I agree to Michel Jackson would have needed a therapy, yet he suffered from issues that connected back to his father and he had some fear of looking like his father some day. He also must have had some skin tone issues, I don't know if he really had a type of Vitiligo, as the rumour went. He may have had a disorder in the case of paedophilia though.

So there are certain cases where gender related mental issues are indeed up for discussion, and among doctors they are still discussed, too. I have read about cases, where kids with some transidentic periods in their life have turned out to "go back" to just become d'accord on their gender-to-sex-level after some years, aye. Still I don't think this can justify everyone certain on their transidentity to be treated as if they were mental.
There are such cases in terms of homosexuality and heterosexuality, too. This can be related to another classification of mental disorders, (called ego-dystone sexual orientation in the ICD-10, F66-1) ) where there are compulsive promiscuity and identity problems.
Still, nobody would send everyone off to do a therapy, because they feel heterosexual or homosexual, eh.
So this must be treated very careful and on a case specific level and in the focus on related level of suffering, as modern therapists will do.

If someone grew from just a common straight dude into someone who achieved acceptance to an unusual lover babe, I think this can only be a win situation and it would show that love can conquer nearly all boundaries.
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Re: Not gay but...

Unread postby xeil » 15 January 2020, 12:51

I transgender person can be happy with the body she/he/* has. Not everyone wants to have operations, can be because they are happy with their body or they don't want to undergo the procedures, etc... Besides not every transgender person has gender dysphoria, where people feel uncomfortable in being in the body they have been born in but there is also gender euphoria. I'm not even talking about all the shades of gender which is not binary.
Besides the poster is not manipulated, he can choose what he wants to do. If he feels well, that's ok. If not that's ok too. It's up to you, no one can make you do anything.
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Re: Not gay but...

Unread postby René » 15 January 2020, 12:56

homomorphism wrote:You're just some not-particularly-successful guy who's been working on a degree for just shy of forever and have absolutely no working knowledge of...any of these fields. So if there's like a magazine you read or an op-ed piece or something that you want to cite, that'd be cool. Otherwise, it just seems like you're being a dick about this to inflate your sense of self-worth.

I'm sure Brenden will be substantiating his views shortly, and I will ignore the condescending implication that he would rely on a bunch of magazine articles or blog posts rather than peer-reviewed medical research to do so.

I just want to point out that, if you're going to criticise Brenden for the delay in completing his degree, you must also know the circumstances that led to it: one major reason was that for a lot of that time, he was suffering from severely debilitating treatment-resistant depression, for which he's only recently begun to receive adequate treatment (mainly as a result the UK Conservative Party's woeful underfunding of mental health services), the other major reason being that right in the middle of his studies, those same conservative UK politicians gleefully decided to massively cut education funding in England, meaning the university was forced to jack its tuition fees by a factor of about 10, putting them out of Brenden's reach without going into serious debt, and the only responsible solution involved taking some time off and moving to Scotland, where the government still values education, and waiting several years for the local rates to begin applying to him here.

I'm sure you're far too successful to befall any of those misfortunes, but you may want to hold off on making fun of those who haven't been as lucky.

GearFetTwinkRomance wrote:So there are certain cases where gender related mental issues are indeed up for discussion, and among doctors they are still discussed, too. I have read about cases, where kids with some transidentic periods in their life have turned out to "go back" to just become d'accord on their gender-to-sex-level after some years, aye. Still I don't think this can justify everyone certain on their transidentity to be treated as if they were mental.

I don't think that's the implication any more than one would argue that someone suffering from clinical depression is by definition a lunatic. I think it's more along the lines of "I think these people often suffer in ways that would benefit from counselling and that this should be considered before jumping on making irreversible changes to their bodies."
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Re: Not gay but...

Unread postby Brenden » 15 January 2020, 12:59

homomorphism wrote:
Brenden wrote:I think transsexualism, when not linked to actual genetic and physical disorders such as intersex people have, is as suspect a concept as transracialism. Michael Jackson needed therapy, not race-affirming plastic surgery!

Derek wrote:Do you deny the lived experiences of all the trans people who have credited their transition with giving them a shot at living a fulfilled life?

I think they can certainly think that, especially in an atmosphere that affirms that thought. I don't blame them for that or seeking out what they think (perhaps misguidedly) is the best course of action for dealing with their mental disorder.

I've noticed on the LGBT subreddit many posts about finding and sharing details of doctors who just prescribe hormone therapy with no psychiatric questions asked. I suffer from body dysmorphic disorder, which is like dysphoria, and if there were a pill I could pop that people said would make my body look the way I want it to look, I'd certainly be tempted, even if there were many side effects and potential unknown consequences. It does seem like the path of least resistance.

What position are you in to be making these claims? It doesn't look like you're citing anything and just preemptively responding to anything in the literature on the subject with unsubstantiated claims like

Brenden wrote:New scientific/medical studies are not being done for fear of the label. Old ones are suppressed. Biological truth is being swept under the rug.

Which I guess means that you think an extremely at-risk minority population has somehow managed to infiltrate a variety of political, medical, scientific, and sociological fields to make the climate hostile towards any study critical to trans* identities.

No need for "infiltration" by trans people themselves when "allies" kick up such fusses over everything.

In academia, censorship and conformity have become the norm
Dr Debra Soh wrote:In August, another controversy erupted when PLOS ONE published a study by physician Lisa Littman. She wrote about rapid-onset gender dysphoria, a growing phenomenon of girls who, out of the blue, announce they are transgender. Due to backlash from transgender activists, Brown University pulled the study’s corresponding press release, and PLOS ONE said the study had been placed under review. Considering that it underwent peer review prior to being published and other experts in the field would have scrutinized it for its methodology and content, the decision was unheard of.

These instances are indicative of a larger, worrisome trend – instead of debating contentious ideas, those in opposition to them throw words ending in “-phobic” around, shutting the conversation down and pretending they don’t exist.


homomorphism wrote:You're just some not-particularly-successful guy who's been working on a degree for just shy of forever

Yes, so sorry, excuse me for not going into debt to get a degree quickly so that I can become a cog in an industry machine. I really should have taken out £30,000 of student loans so that I can jump into helping a company make a profit on people's suffering as soon as I could. Then I'd be successful, right?

homomorphism wrote:and have absolutely no working knowledge of...any of these fields.

So only experts can have opinions and comment on these things?

homomorphism wrote:Otherwise, it just seems like you're being a dick about this to inflate your sense of self-worth.

I'm not sure how this is supposedly inflating my sense of self-worth. :squint: You can make this ridiculous ad hominem against anyone in an argument. :yawn:

Here are some studies I've read and saved in my documents:

Psychosexual outcome of gender-dysphoric children.
Wallien & Cohen-Kettenis wrote:Results: At follow-up, 30% of the 77 participants (19 boys and 4 girls) did not respond to our recruiting letter or were not traceable; 27% (12 boys and 9 girls) were still gender dysphoric (persistence group), and 43% (desistance group: 28 boys and 5 girls) were no longer gender dysphoric. Both boys and girls in the persistence group were more extremely cross-gendered in behavior and feelings and were more likely to fulfill gender identity disorder (GID) criteria in childhood than the children in the other two groups. At follow-up, nearly all male and female participants in the persistence group reported having a homosexual or bisexual sexual orientation. In the desistance group, all of the girls and half of the boys reported having a heterosexual orientation. The other half of the boys in the desistance group had a homosexual or bisexual sexual orientation. Conclusions: Most children with gender dysphoria will not remain gender dysphoric after puberty.


A Follow-Up Study of Girls With Gender Identity Disorder
Bradley et al. wrote:This study provided information on the natural histories of 25 girls with gender identity disorder (GID). Standardized assessment data in childhood (mean age, 8.88 years; range, 3–12 years) and at follow-up (mean age, 23.24 years; range, 15–36 years) were used to evaluate gender identity and sexual orientation. At the assessment in childhood, 60% of the girls met the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders criteria for GID, and 40% were subthreshold for the diagnosis. At follow-up, 3 participants (12%) were judged to have GID or gender dysphoria. Regarding sexual orientation, 8 participants (32%) were classified as bisexual/homosexual in fantasy, and 6 (24%) were classified as bisexual/homosexual in behavior. The remaining participants were classified as either heterosexual or asexual.


A Follow-up Study of Boys with Gender Identity Disorder
Devita Singh wrote:This study provided information on the long term psychosexual and psychiatric outcomes of 139 boys with gender identity disorder (GID). Standardized assessment data in childhood (mean age, 7.49 years; range, 3–12 years) and at follow-up (mean age, 20.58 years; range, 13–39 years) were used to evaluate gender identity and sexual orientation outcome. At follow-up, 17 participants (12.2%) were judged to have persistent gender dysphoria. Regarding sexual orientation, 82 (63.6%) participants were classified as bisexual/ homosexual in fantasy and 51 (47.2%) participants were classified as bisexual/homosexual in behavior. The remaining participants were classified as either heterosexual or asexual. With gender identity and sexual orientation combined, the most common long-term outcome was desistence of GID with a bisexual/homosexual sexual orientation followed by desistence of GID with a heterosexual sexual orientation.


So, when left alone, well more than ⅔-⅘ of gender dysphoric children simply stop being dysphoric, and most turn out to be homosexual. Yet the recent trend is to accept and affirm and begin hormone treatment, even on prepubescent children who show any signs of dysphoria.

Meanwhile,

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden
Dhejne et al. wrote:Results: The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results.


Long after reassignment, and in one of the most liberal and accepting countries in the world, people who have undergone "gender-affirming" treatment still had a suicide rate nearly 20 times that of the general population.

Considering that so many dysphoric children desist with no intervention, a medically-conservative, therapy-based approach to gender dysphoria might successfully treat the vast majority of persistent gender-dysphoric people, allowing them to live happily and healthily with their immutable biologic sex rather than undergoing drastic hormonal and surgical intervention that will leave them forever at odds with their nature and with significantly high rates of suicide and psychiatric problems.

Oh, but wait, that can't be done because that would be "conversion therapy". Gender dysphoria must be accepted as intrinsic identity immediately and treated with affirmation of the identity. No psychiatric questions asked.
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Re: Not gay but...

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 15 January 2020, 18:33

Derek wrote:Surely we can compartmentalize how we view the culture of discourse, the philosophy of gender, and trans people themselves?

I see a lot of this when it comes to online hate toward minorities on the basis of having been annoyed by tumblr activists. Why on Earth should the ethnic or sexual communities I am a part of be tarnished simply because you got annoyed by a multi-color haired bull dyke on tumblr who told you to check your straight, white privilege? There are distinct concerns that ought to be addressed separately.

As for this broader discussion on trans issues and whether people should opine on these, I mean, of course people shouldn’t be insensitive dicks. That goes without saying, especially given the vulnerability of said community. Often people’s “skepticism” leads them to be rather disrespectful with their jabs and jokes that are entirely unnecessary, But I also remember being told once that probing deeply into trans people’s’ identities, even if in good faith toward the pursuit of better understanding, is vulgar. I don’t think this approach is helpful even the trans community. Individual trans persons don’t necessarily have an obligation to educate the ignorant masses but there really can’t be meaningful acceptance without understanding.
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Re: Not gay but...

Unread postby Derek » 15 January 2020, 19:39

poolerboy0077 wrote:But I also remember being told once that probing deeply into trans people’s’ identities, even if in good faith toward the pursuit of better understanding, is vulgar.

It's perhaps understandable that they don't want to bother explaining, given how often people simply refuse to believe them and call them deluded, insane, or perverted instead.
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Re: Not gay but...

Unread postby poolerboy0077 » 15 January 2020, 21:32

Derek wrote:
poolerboy0077 wrote:But I also remember being told once that probing deeply into trans people’s’ identities, even if in good faith toward the pursuit of better understanding, is vulgar.

It's perhaps understandable that they don't want to bother explaining, given how often people simply refuse to believe them and call them deluded, insane, or perverted instead.

It’s one thing if they don’t want to answer any questions. Quite understandable. It’s quite another that we can’t ask of other non-transgender people about it lest they happen upon our questions.
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Re: Not gay but...

Unread postby Capt._Trips » 16 January 2020, 01:12

Brenden wrote:
homomorphism wrote:
Brenden wrote:I think transsexualism, when not linked to actual genetic and physical disorders such as intersex people have, is as suspect a concept as transracialism. Michael Jackson needed therapy, not race-affirming plastic surgery!

Derek wrote:Do you deny the lived experiences of all the trans people who have credited their transition with giving them a shot at living a fulfilled life?

I think they can certainly think that, especially in an atmosphere that affirms that thought. I don't blame them for that or seeking out what they think (perhaps misguidedly) is the best course of action for dealing with their mental disorder.

I've noticed on the LGBT subreddit many posts about finding and sharing details of doctors who just prescribe hormone therapy with no psychiatric questions asked. I suffer from body dysmorphic disorder, which is like dysphoria, and if there were a pill I could pop that people said would make my body look the way I want it to look, I'd certainly be tempted, even if there were many side effects and potential unknown consequences. It does seem like the path of least resistance.

What position are you in to be making these claims? It doesn't look like you're citing anything and just preemptively responding to anything in the literature on the subject with unsubstantiated claims like

Brenden wrote:New scientific/medical studies are not being done for fear of the label. Old ones are suppressed. Biological truth is being swept under the rug.

Which I guess means that you think an extremely at-risk minority population has somehow managed to infiltrate a variety of political, medical, scientific, and sociological fields to make the climate hostile towards any study critical to trans* identities.

No need for "infiltration" by trans people themselves when "allies" kick up such fusses over everything.

In academia, censorship and conformity have become the norm
Dr Debra Soh wrote:In August, another controversy erupted when PLOS ONE published a study by physician Lisa Littman. She wrote about rapid-onset gender dysphoria, a growing phenomenon of girls who, out of the blue, announce they are transgender. Due to backlash from transgender activists, Brown University pulled the study’s corresponding press release, and PLOS ONE said the study had been placed under review. Considering that it underwent peer review prior to being published and other experts in the field would have scrutinized it for its methodology and content, the decision was unheard of.

These instances are indicative of a larger, worrisome trend – instead of debating contentious ideas, those in opposition to them throw words ending in “-phobic” around, shutting the conversation down and pretending they don’t exist.


homomorphism wrote:You're just some not-particularly-successful guy who's been working on a degree for just shy of forever

Yes, so sorry, excuse me for not going into debt to get a degree quickly so that I can become a cog in an industry machine. I really should have taken out £30,000 of student loans so that I can jump into helping a company make a profit on people's suffering as soon as I could. Then I'd be successful, right?

homomorphism wrote:and have absolutely no working knowledge of...any of these fields.

So only experts can have opinions and comment on these things?

homomorphism wrote:Otherwise, it just seems like you're being a dick about this to inflate your sense of self-worth.

I'm not sure how this is supposedly inflating my sense of self-worth. :squint: You can make this ridiculous ad hominem against anyone in an argument. :yawn:

Here are some studies I've read and saved in my documents:

Psychosexual outcome of gender-dysphoric children.
Wallien & Cohen-Kettenis wrote:Results: At follow-up, 30% of the 77 participants (19 boys and 4 girls) did not respond to our recruiting letter or were not traceable; 27% (12 boys and 9 girls) were still gender dysphoric (persistence group), and 43% (desistance group: 28 boys and 5 girls) were no longer gender dysphoric. Both boys and girls in the persistence group were more extremely cross-gendered in behavior and feelings and were more likely to fulfill gender identity disorder (GID) criteria in childhood than the children in the other two groups. At follow-up, nearly all male and female participants in the persistence group reported having a homosexual or bisexual sexual orientation. In the desistance group, all of the girls and half of the boys reported having a heterosexual orientation. The other half of the boys in the desistance group had a homosexual or bisexual sexual orientation. Conclusions: Most children with gender dysphoria will not remain gender dysphoric after puberty.


A Follow-Up Study of Girls With Gender Identity Disorder
Bradley et al. wrote:This study provided information on the natural histories of 25 girls with gender identity disorder (GID). Standardized assessment data in childhood (mean age, 8.88 years; range, 3–12 years) and at follow-up (mean age, 23.24 years; range, 15–36 years) were used to evaluate gender identity and sexual orientation. At the assessment in childhood, 60% of the girls met the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders criteria for GID, and 40% were subthreshold for the diagnosis. At follow-up, 3 participants (12%) were judged to have GID or gender dysphoria. Regarding sexual orientation, 8 participants (32%) were classified as bisexual/homosexual in fantasy, and 6 (24%) were classified as bisexual/homosexual in behavior. The remaining participants were classified as either heterosexual or asexual.


A Follow-up Study of Boys with Gender Identity Disorder
Devita Singh wrote:This study provided information on the long term psychosexual and psychiatric outcomes of 139 boys with gender identity disorder (GID). Standardized assessment data in childhood (mean age, 7.49 years; range, 3–12 years) and at follow-up (mean age, 20.58 years; range, 13–39 years) were used to evaluate gender identity and sexual orientation outcome. At follow-up, 17 participants (12.2%) were judged to have persistent gender dysphoria. Regarding sexual orientation, 82 (63.6%) participants were classified as bisexual/ homosexual in fantasy and 51 (47.2%) participants were classified as bisexual/homosexual in behavior. The remaining participants were classified as either heterosexual or asexual. With gender identity and sexual orientation combined, the most common long-term outcome was desistence of GID with a bisexual/homosexual sexual orientation followed by desistence of GID with a heterosexual sexual orientation.


So, when left alone, well more than ⅔-⅘ of gender dysphoric children simply stop being dysphoric, and most turn out to be homosexual. Yet the recent trend is to accept and affirm and begin hormone treatment, even on prepubescent children who show any signs of dysphoria.

Meanwhile,

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden
Dhejne et al. wrote:Results: The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results.


Long after reassignment, and in one of the most liberal and accepting countries in the world, people who have undergone "gender-affirming" treatment still had a suicide rate nearly 20 times that of the general population.

Considering that so many dysphoric children desist with no intervention, a medically-conservative, therapy-based approach to gender dysphoria might successfully treat the vast majority of persistent gender-dysphoric people, allowing them to live happily and healthily with their immutable biologic sex rather than undergoing drastic hormonal and surgical intervention that will leave them forever at odds with their nature and with significantly high rates of suicide and psychiatric problems.

Oh, but wait, that can't be done because that would be "conversion therapy". Gender dysphoria must be accepted as intrinsic identity immediately and treated with affirmation of the identity. No psychiatric questions asked.


I don't think anyone here is arguing for kids to transition. I to find it pretty concerning and even neglectful for the small amount of parent's that feel a child can make that decision. Regardless of how the child is feeling they cannot make an important decision like that. But it's not common as most parent's have enough sense to realize that.

Also we can't correlate the suicide rates of transsexuals with transitioning. There is no doubt they have a much harder time being accepted by the general population. And plenty are confused with there own body/ sexuality. As a gay guy i could never understand what it would be like to feel like i was born the wrong gender. I beat myself up enough just because i realized i was gay. I couldn't imagine how i would feel if i felt like i should be a woman. There are plenty of reasons people commit suicide. Outside forces play a role and trans people definitely have a lot of opinions from the non-trans community

Just remember not that long ago there were people claiming gays could be "cured" with therapy. Which we know now is not the case.

I completely agree on your opinion on "trans" children ( i do think they are capable of knowing what they are. But not enough to make a lifetime decision though. ) but i have to disagree with your opinions on adults that transition. But yeah in short a 12 year old can't tell you what they want at 40. But that's with anything in life not just sexual identity.

I'm sure there are people that regret transitioning. I just dont think its a large percentage. And most are happier after transitioning.
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Re: Not gay but...

Unread postby Derek » 16 January 2020, 02:40

It's a delicate issue with kids. There's an incentive to transition as early as possible, because hormones and surgery will be much more effective. On the other hand, it is a huge and irreversible decision, motivated by muddled and intangible psychological drives. It doesn't surprise me to learn that gender dysphoria is sometimes misdiagnosed or that people transitioned before they were old enough to know for sure it's what they wanted. But the stories you hear sound exactly like those apocryphal tales you used to hear about kids who were "converted" into identifying as homosexual. That is to say, rare and exaggerated accounts dug up not to advance our understanding, but to scare and offend.

The more salient cases when it comes to judging whether transgender identities are valid are the adults. In spite of that time someone with an anime avatar called you truscum, there's no shortage of trans people who have documented their transitions and openly discussed their motivations for transitioning and its effect on their mental well-being. In fact, there are so many that a scientific consensus has emerged around the issue, and gender dysphoria was added to the DSM in 2013, with transitioning (along with counseling) listed as the primary treatment. The only reason anyone has to discount this consensus is if they believe there is a conspiracy in the psychiatric profession to... I don't know, bury the truth because political correctness? For social media cred?

The thing that gets me about this debate is that we've seen it before. All the things you hear - it's a mental illness, you're enabling them to ruin their own lives, it's degeneracy, think of the children - these are all the exact same things people said to combat the acceptance of gay and bisexual people. The reactionary position stems from the same premise, namely that these minorities are deluded liars whose account of their own lives can't be trusted. And then to add insult to injury, we take the acuity of their suffering (whether at the hands of social pressures or their own dysphoria) as evidence that we were right to dismiss their identities, to stigmatize them, pathologize their feelings, and to keep them marginalized. I find it totally bizarre.
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Re: Not gay but...

Unread postby Capt._Trips » 16 January 2020, 03:11

Derek wrote:It's a delicate issue with kids. There's an incentive to transition as early as possible, because hormones and surgery will be much more effective. On the other hand, it is a huge and irreversible decision, motivated by muddled and intangible psychological drives. It doesn't surprise me to learn that gender dysphoria is sometimes misdiagnosed or that people transitioned before they were old enough to know for sure it's what they wanted. But the stories you hear sound exactly like those apocryphal tales you used to hear about kids who were "converted" into identifying as homosexual. That is to say, rare and exaggerated accounts dug up not to advance our understanding, but to scare and offend.

The more salient cases when it comes to judging whether transgender identities are valid are the adults. In spite of that time someone with an anime avatar called you truscum, there's no shortage of trans people who have documented their transitions and openly discussed their motivations for transitioning and its effect on their mental well-being. In fact, there are so many that a scientific consensus has emerged around the issue, and gender dysphoria was added to the DSM in 2013, with transitioning (along with counseling) listed as the primary treatment. The only reason anyone has to discount this consensus is if they believe there is a conspiracy in the psychiatric profession to... I don't know, bury the truth because political correctness? For social media cred?

The thing that gets me about this debate is that we've seen it before. All the things you hear - it's a mental illness, you're enabling them to ruin their own lives, it's degeneracy, think of the children - these are all the exact same things people said to combat the acceptance of gay and bisexual people. The reactionary position stems from the same premise, namely that these minorities are deluded liars whose account of their own lives can't be trusted. And then to add insult to injury, we take the acuity of their suffering (whether at the hands of social pressures or their own dysphoria) as evidence that we were right to dismiss their identities, to stigmatize them, pathologize their feelings, and to keep them marginalized. I find it totally bizarre.

See my brain runs at a thousand times a second. You guys express it much better. :awesome:
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