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Christianity and being gay

Unread postPosted: 25 April 2020, 22:35
by mrmadness
The word "gay Christian" doesn't hit the ears right to many people, because to most people it sounds like an oxymoron. But, for me I think the notion that one has to be an atheist if one is gay should be challenged. A person's religious beliefs should not be up for debate, because that can be a very discomforting experience for a person. Whether an individual wants to believe in heaven or hell, God, Jesus, and sin is totally up to them. I think labelling oneself as a Christian shouldn't invite judgement if that person happens to be gay. But, I want to ask people on this forum a few questions: can one be gay and Christian? Should these notions of excluding gay people from religion be challenged? And, how do people on this forum feel about religiosity in a gay person's life?

Re: Christianity and being gay

Unread postPosted: 25 April 2020, 22:44
by Marmaduke
One can be gay and Christian.

One should follow the rules of one’s chosen faith. If certain acts are against the rules of your god, and you break them, it’s between you and your church. It’s not for others to defend your right to exemption from a doctrine you want to subscribe to only in part.

Religiousity in any person’s life is a business of theirs and theirs alone. I have no interest.

Re: Christianity and being gay

Unread postPosted: 25 April 2020, 22:46
by Brenden
Anyone who’s a Christian and gay has do to a whole lot of mental gymnastics to square their holy book with their life. Plenty of doublethink to ease the unavoidable cognitive dissonance.

Anyway, you’re setting up a false dichotomy of Christian and atheist. There are plenty of other religions and beliefs that are theistic while being far more accepting of homosexuality.

Re: Christianity and being gay

Unread postPosted: 25 April 2020, 22:49
by Magic J
Are there any priests who aren't gay? :P

But more seriously, yes, I think that one can very well be gay and Christian. Being gay doesn't stop somebody having spiritual impulses, and that could conceivably find itself within Christianity, or any other religion. However, it's also the case that most major religions have some level of disapproval towards homosexuality, and particularly the Abrahamic religions. Outside of some quite radical denominations that are accepting of it (Liberal Quakerism comes to mind), I'd think any gay Christian would have to wrestle with the feeling that they're somehow improper or wrong in the way they are. That can't be easy at all.

As Rene Brenden says, I'd think one would require a theological sophistication that many people won't develop to reconcile these parts of themselves, or to find reconciliation between Christianity in general and non-heterosexuality.

EDIT: Just saw you had another question! Yes, I think religious views which are hostile to homosexuality should be challenged. Faith is personal, but not beyond discussion.

Re: Christianity and being gay

Unread postPosted: 25 April 2020, 22:51
by Marmaduke
René wrote:Anyone who’s a Christian and gay has do to a whole lot of mental gymnastics to square their holy book with their life. Plenty of doublethink to ease the unavoidable cognitive dissonance.

Anyway, you’re setting up a false dichotomy of Christian and atheist. There are plenty of other religions and beliefs that are theistic while being far more accepting of homosexuality.

Hi René

Re: Christianity and being gay

Unread postPosted: 25 April 2020, 22:57
by Brenden
I’m confused.

Re: Christianity and being gay

Unread postPosted: 25 April 2020, 23:00
by Marmaduke
Magic J wrote:EDIT: Just saw you had another question! Yes, I think religious views which are hostile to homosexuality should be challenged. Faith is personal, but not beyond discussion.

See, now, I‘m gonna defend the Faith here. I do not believe there is a valid argument for the challenging of religious doctrine for the purposes of inclusion.

These are tenets of faith centuries, if not millennia, in the holding. It’s not like the rules of any major faith have changed. They aren’t up for peer review and nobody is forcing you to adopt them, at least not in the free world. Where such freedom is lacking, that is the grounds for challenge.

The rules are the rules. Set by the ultimate authority. Abide by them or don’t. The rewards and consequences are all laid out. Don’t like it, don’t subscribe.

Re: Christianity and being gay

Unread postPosted: 25 April 2020, 23:00
by Marmaduke
Brenden wrote:I’m confused.

Jordan confuses you for René. He can’t tell you apart.

Re: Christianity and being gay

Unread postPosted: 25 April 2020, 23:08
by Magic J
Marmaduke wrote:See, now, I‘m gonna defend the Faith here. I do not believe there is a valid argument for the challenging of religious doctrine for the purposes of inclusion.

These are tenets of faith centuries, if not millennia, in the holding. It’s not like the rules of any major faith have changed. They aren’t up for peer review and nobody is forcing you to adopt them - at least not in the free world. Where such freedom is lacking, that is the grounds for challenge The rules are the rules. Set by the ultimate authority. Abide by them or don’t. The rewards and consequences are all laid out. Don’t like it, don’t subscribe.

Tell that to the Protestants! Bloody heretics. They turned their back on the Holy Church of Rome and shall burn in hell for it! :P

I don't mean to say that religious institutions should adapt for inclusion per se. Rather, I mean that their doctrines in general should be freely challenged if one thinks they're false or misleading. That can be a religious position on homosexuality, or a position on whether God is a trinity, or whatever. That can be a theological debate, not just a "political" one.

Marmaduke wrote:Jordan confuses you for René. He can’t tell you apart.

Orange name... occasionally speaks Dutch... I accept no responsibility for the mistake. :P

Re: Christianity and being gay

Unread postPosted: 25 April 2020, 23:16
by Derek
There's a textual dissonance, and a moral one given that accepting yourself as gay requires you to challenge the unthinking, normative mindset that typically goes hand-in-hand with organized religion. So can you be gay and Christian? Sure, no one's stopping you. Doesn't mean you should be, though.

Re: Christianity and being gay

Unread postPosted: 25 April 2020, 23:19
by Marmaduke
Oh if you’re just open to the broad idea of religious debate, I’m gonna disagree just because it’s never not the stupidest debate you’ve ever read. You can’t challenge someone who can simply defer the need to make sense to having faith and not needing to understand the devine will of the Lord. Debating religion from the outside is exclusively a waste of time. Debating it from the inside is basically just trying to assert that what are quite clear rules that simply don’t fit with contemporary conscience are actually just a matter of interpretation. They almost never are. They’re usually pretty cut and dry.

Homosexuality and religion converge in two ways;

1. You believe in one specific monotheistic doctrine, transubstantiation and all, and you don’t conform to it’s rules. Tough luck. You believe those rules are set by the ultimate authority. That authority never promised you fair and equitable access to heaven. Heaven is shit. There’s no discrimination protection at all. It’s all white middle class people and Nigerians. You’re fucked. It’s not nice, but it’s your god. Make your peace with it or change your beliefs.

2. You believe there is a higher power. You don’t really subscribe to the ins and outs of any pre-written fantasy drama that you’ve found, but you lack the ability to hold a belief or view that isn’t held by someone else, or espoused by an octogenarian in a ceremonial headpiece. Well fuck me, grow up. Have the emotional maturity to believe what you believe and, as long as it’s not hurting you or someone else, be happy. If it is hurting you or someone else, change it.

And yes, you very much can change what you believe. You just need to not be fucking stupid about it.

Re: Christianity and being gay

Unread postPosted: 25 April 2020, 23:22
by Magic J
Derek wrote:There's a textual dissonance, and an moral one given that accepting yourself as gay requires you to challenge the unthinking, normative mindset that typically goes hand-in-hand with organized religion. So can you be gay and Christian? Sure, no one's stopping you. Doesn't mean you should be, though.

Interesting to note: Liberal UK Quakerism challenges that normative mindset from a Christian stance, remaining deeply religious.

http://www.quakersintheworld.org/quaker ... -Sexuality

They're pretty out there, though, not exactly the standard Christian. :P

Re: Christianity and being gay

Unread postPosted: 25 April 2020, 23:35
by Magic J
Marmaduke wrote:Oh if you’re just open to the broad idea of religious debate, I’m gonna disagree just because it’s never not the stupidest debate you’ve ever read. You can’t challenge someone who can simply defer the need to make sense to having faith and not needing to understand the devine will of the Lord. Debating religion from the outside is exclusively a waste of time. Debating it from the inside is basically just trying to assert that what are quite clear rules that simply don’t fit with contemporary conscience are actually just a matter of interpretation. They almost never are. They’re usually pretty cut and dry.


I would usually begin the debate with an acceptance that I can't challenge faith, because it's essentially beyond challenge. However, debating "from the inside", as you put it, assuming faith and moving onto issues of practice and specific beliefs, can be interesting, if they're actually willing to think a bit. At any rate, I imagine that a lot of theologians aren't fundamentalists when it comes to scripture, scripture being written by mortals and all that. I have no idea, though, since I'm not a Christian and never have been. :P

Re: Christianity and being gay

Unread postPosted: 25 April 2020, 23:39
by Marmaduke
Theologians are just religious apologists desperately trying to keep their respective gods relevant and more popular than the other gods. Their gods will smite them first.

Re: Christianity and being gay

Unread postPosted: 25 April 2020, 23:50
by Magic J
Marmaduke wrote:Theologians are just religious apologists desperately trying to keep their respective gods relevant and more popular than the other gods. Their gods will smite them first.

Seems like a nice way to pass the time.

But anyway, Eris is best god. All the rest are pure bunkum and fnordery.

Re: Christianity and being gay

Unread postPosted: 25 April 2020, 23:52
by Marmaduke
Magic J wrote:
Marmaduke wrote:Theologians are just religious apologists desperately trying to keep their respective gods relevant and more popular than the other gods. Their gods will smite them first.

Seems like a nice way to pass the time.

But anyway, Eris is best god. All the rest are pure bunkum and fnordery.

I’m sorry, who? Does he even have a day of the week named after him? Because I dont think he does. You know who does though? Odin. The All Father.

Daddy Odin is the only man I’m worshiping.

Re: Christianity and being gay

Unread postPosted: 25 April 2020, 23:57
by Magic J
Marmaduke wrote:I’m sorry, who? Does he even have a day of the week named after him? Because I dont think he does. You know who does though? Odin. The All Father.

Daddy Odin is the only man I’m worshiping.

He is a She! A girl god. Eris. Get with it.

One day of the week? Try FIVE derived from Her Chaotastic Lady. Sweetmorn, Boomtime, Pungenday, Prickle Prickle, and Orange. And a whole new calendar! I can't remember much of the calendar, though... It's very complicated.

Re: Christianity and being gay

Unread postPosted: 25 April 2020, 23:59
by Marmaduke
I am not accepting any calendar naming system where Thursday is to be substituted for “prickle prickle”. You can shove that, prickles and all, right up your ass.

Re: Christianity and being gay

Unread postPosted: 26 April 2020, 00:08
by Magic J
Marmaduke wrote:I am not accepting any calendar naming system where Thursday is to be substituted for “prickle prickle”. You can shove that, prickles and all, right up your ass.

Thursday is not substituted for Prickle Prickle. There are FIVE days, FIVE being Her Holy Number, and an all round great digit.

I've checked the date. Today is Sweetmorn in the 42nd of the season of Discord, Year of Our Lady of Discord 3186.

Fuck. I was meant to pay my membership dues fifteen Boomtimes prior. I'm getting excommunicated...

Re: Christianity and being gay

Unread postPosted: 26 April 2020, 00:15
by Brenden
A religion that reveres the most holy number 5 is my sort of religion!