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Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2013, 08:00
by poolerboy0077
Szazomy wrote:
poolerboy0077 wrote:It could be the case that sexual orientation isn't entirely innate but your explanation here I don't think is very good.

Consider puberty by analogy. No one is born pubescent; it takes years before we finally hit that stage of our lives. Yet no one would ever conclude that puberty isn't entirely innate simply because we're not born into it.


Fair enough, the explanation isn't great. Mine never are :P

I'm personally inclined to believe that sexual orientation is determined by a mix of biological and psychological factors, but I don't know if there are sufficient indicators that the human mind is capable of such developed psychology at birth that sexual orientation could be predetermined so early on.
Whilst I'm happy for it to be proved otherwise (it's nothing more than my personal opinion), there are supportive correlations that being subjected to particular lifestyles or circumstances can contribute to a greater likelihood of being gay (i.e. homosexuality in males is more common in single-parent circumstances where the biological father is absent). Are we to believe that under different life circumstances that gay individuals would always possess the same sexual orientation?

Sexual orientation could also be different for every individual. Look at diabetes for example. Someone get it solely because of genetics. Others get it by a combination of different factors. And so on and so on.

david3000 wrote:lots of people turn gay after they got raped as children or after they've been in jail, so yeah environment is definitely something that can turn a person gay. Then some others felt they were born that way. So both cases might be true.

It could be the case that after getting raped as a minor by a person of the same sex the minor's sexual orientation goes from straight to gay. But it could also be the case that the minor's sexual orientation was already predetermined to be gay and coincidentally happened to get raped by someone the same sex; after all, there are people who are gay without ever having been sexually abused (me, for example). How are you able to distinguish between the two? You can't just look at the mere association and claim causality like that. The technical scientific term for that is bullshit.

Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2013, 09:00
by David3000
delete

Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2013, 14:35
by Paragon
Not really. After [sexual] trauma, the minds of survivors will try all sorts of tricks to come to terms with the traumatic memory. It could be that they become unable to function in their "normal" sexual relationships, or they attempt to cope by justifying the homosexual encounter as something they wanted or needed, or they play out the traumatic event again with themselves in control.
If a child has indeed been molested before the latency stage (around 8 years, all the way to puberty) when sexuality begins to solidify, their very idea of what a sexual relationship even is may be... I won't say "warped", but definitely nonstandard.
In none of these situations would sexual orientation itself change.

And once again, we must stress that being gay or bi is not the same as being willing to explore the possibility of being gay or bi. According to Kinsey's findings, a heck of a lot more people should be capable of homosexual relationships. But only a small minority end up actually coming out.

Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2013, 08:59
by Chibi Seme
Adam88 wrote:I think it's just a matter or preference. Some guys like blond girls, some guys like guys....

Honestly, I dislike the term "sexual preference" to begin with. It implies that everyone has the potential to be attracted to anyone and just has "preferences" that they find more appealing in others.

Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2013, 09:00
by GayHoosier
Chibi Seme wrote:
Adam88 wrote:I think it's just a matter or preference. Some guys like blond girls, some guys like guys....

Honestly, I dislike the term "sexual preference" to begin with. It implies that everyone has the potential to be attracted to anyone and just has "preferences" that they find more appealing in others.


I agree.

Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postPosted: 1 June 2013, 03:34
by Pepperoni
During the early part of my life, my dad worked really long hours and I didn't see him much, and the majority of my days were spent with my mom, my sister, and their female friends. As a possible result, when I started school I tended to mostly make friends with the girls in my class. I think this somehow caused me to have a very feminine brain and would be my guess as to why I'm gay.

So I don't think I was born gay, but I had about as much choice in the matter as in what foods taste good to me.

Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postPosted: 5 June 2013, 23:08
by BroadwayBaby
GayHoosier wrote:
Chibi Seme wrote:
Adam88 wrote:I think it's just a matter or preference. Some guys like blond girls, some guys like guys....

Honestly, I dislike the term "sexual preference" to begin with. It implies that everyone has the potential to be attracted to anyone and just has "preferences" that they find more appealing in others.

I agree.

I don't think the word "preference" necessarily has that implication. It means "a greater liking for one alternative over another or others," which to me doesn't mean that everyone has the potential to like the others more than the one that they do prefer. Does that makes sense?

Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postPosted: 19 June 2013, 16:10
by Alucard_117
BroadwayBaby wrote:
GayHoosier wrote:
Chibi Seme wrote:
Adam88 wrote:I think it's just a matter or preference. Some guys like blond girls, some guys like guys....

Honestly, I dislike the term "sexual preference" to begin with. It implies that everyone has the potential to be attracted to anyone and just has "preferences" that they find more appealing in others.

I agree.

I don't think the word "preference" necessarily has that implication. It means "a greater liking for one alternative over another or others," which to me doesn't mean that everyone has the potential to like the others more than the one that they do prefer. Does that makes sense?

Except preference does imply hat. If you prefer eating Itslian food, it doesn't mean you stop eating everything else, it means that you like Italian food, but will eat other things too.

Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postPosted: 4 August 2013, 16:49
by charles-smythe
Josiemonster wrote:Do you think people are born gay? Or do you think it's environmental factors?

Can someone 'turn' gay?

.
...i'm bi sexual...looking back i think my whole life i was attracted to both genders...but because of society i supressed my attraction to men...and concentrated on women...i think many many men do this...to get around societys sexual bias they get involved in all sorts of gay bonding activites where they can still be "Friends' with guys without raising 'societ's eye brow...only reason i can see for this male obsession for sports...ganging up in some guy's garage looking upder the hood of a car and etc....acceptable ways to be 'buddies' with male friends......i was in my 40s before i said the hell with society and gave men a try...guess what i loved it...still love the ladies too...now i get to bat from both sides of the plate...

Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postPosted: 4 August 2013, 17:09
by charles-smythe
Lucas wrote:Dude they would never let gays go extinct. Who would be the fashion designers and interior decorators? The hair dressers and male flight attendants? Whether the establishment will it admit it or not, they need gays.

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...who the hell wants gay flight attendants...i want hot female eye candy to take my mind off crashing...now a manly working class, hairy chested baggage handler...in those hot coverall that zip down the front...not thats a whole different matter...

Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postPosted: 4 August 2013, 17:11
by charles-smythe
acpro wrote:
Lucas wrote:Dude they would never let gays go extinct. Who would be the fashion designers and interior decorators? The hair dressers and male flight attendants? Whether the establishment will it admit it or not, they need gays.


But if people are truly born gay, and not just genetically predispositioned (which I sort of lean towards actually), then parents could see that and then abort and eventually maybe even intervene genetically prior to birth or even conception.

I love being gay and I wouldn't want it any other way, but do straight parents feel the same way? Even liberal ones?

.
...no the majority would abort and try again...

Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postPosted: 5 August 2013, 23:04
by Carnage
Not sure. Homosexuality runs in families, but genetic models tend to not line up.

Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postPosted: 11 August 2013, 17:30
by Jonnehh
I definitely think homosexuality is all in the genetics. Some people may be born this way, but with others, perhaps, the brain changes through the prepubescent development stages to become a "homosexual brain", so to speak.

When I was young...probably around 10-12 years old, I was a hit with the ladies in school. I even had a junior high girlfriend. But as the years went on, I felt more attracted to the guys than the girls. Now, I exclusively find men sexually attractive. I also know some guys who knew they were gay from their earliest years and never went through any of these changes that I did. Sexual orientation development seems to be a very fluid thing.

Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postPosted: 11 August 2013, 19:14
by Patt
I can only speak from my perspective of course, but I have never been attracted to females/anything other than males. Sure I had a girlfriend or two, but when I think about those relationships they were never because I was attracted to the person, I just sort of thought it was what one did. When I began to feel actual attraction it was almost exclusively towards men, even though I didn't know what that meant at the time.

To answer the question more directly though, my jury is out when it comes to whether people are born gay. I don't think there's conclusive and unbiased evidence about it yet and I don't think there will be until homosexuality is no longer a social issue. That said I don't think it's a particularly important question - regardless of whether people are born gay, become gay through environmental factors or make some sort of subconscious choice, there is no good argument as to why that should be changed.

Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postPosted: 14 August 2013, 20:07
by Idwk255
To the OP: Others have already mentioned that the evidence currently suggests a mixture. The heritability of homosexuality has been estimated by MZ DZ correlation, and it is estimated to be approx 30-60% of the phenotypic variance of the study population can be explained by genetics. I should really cite references but I'm feeling lazy and have posted a fair amount on this topic on science forums.

Genetic factors and environmental factors, together, explain the phenotypic variance observed in populations for the trait homosexuality. Both genetics and environment explain a substantial amount by themselves as suggested by the heritability evidence. As another user has pointed out, it is not as simple as genetics = no choice, environment = choice.

There have been many other interesting heritability studies which provide suggestive evidence that supports the role of both genetics and environment. Examples include the heritability of criminal records/convictions and the heritability of homophobia. In both examples, both genetics and environment were found to contribute a substantial amount (as opposed to one dominating).

Converting the suggestive evidence of heritability studies into actual genetic and environmental factors with measured effect sizes has been extremely difficult for homosexuality. GWAS have typically not identified many genetic factors at all. Genetic loci that have been found to be of statistical significance, have since been retested only to be found to be insignificant. We cannot explain the heritability with specific genetic factors, we only have suggestive evidence that genetics contributes.

Someone mentioned epigenetics as a possibility. If i recall correctly, epigenetics has been theorized to be a possible genetic mechanism which could contribute to homosexuality because of the observed epigenetic escape (failure of epigenetic patterns to be correctly implemented in offspring). I'm not sure if there is any direct evidence for an epigenetic mechanism.

My overall opinion is based on the evidence. Genetic and environmental factors contribute to the cause of homosexuality. How does this translate to choice? we don't have much choice with respect to our genetics, we are dealt the hand we are dealt. It is much harder to say whether environmental factors are under our control, especially since we have no idea what environmental factors contribute and how much they contribute. My educated answer: No choice of genetics, possibly for environmental factors but don't know for sure. My anecdotal evidence/answer: it feels as though I didn't have a choice at all, I don't recall ever consciously deciding to be sexually attracted to men, furthermore it feels as though I didn't make decisions about sexual trait preference.

Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postPosted: 26 August 2013, 02:58
by arcanepersona
My answer is no. I think that sexuality is more of a continuum than black and white. I'm sure that genetics plays a role, but it's not the only influence.

Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postPosted: 26 August 2013, 06:41
by Idwk255
If the theory that "people are born gay" is to be compatible with the current evidence, then a deterministic universe must be assumed so that the environmental factors one is exposed to is completely fixed\determined.

There is more evidence against a deterministic universe than there is for one. So it is unlikely that people are born gay, though with perfect knowledge of the genetics one could calculate the probability one will become gay.

Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postPosted: 9 September 2013, 19:42
by Adam25
I honestly think it can be a bit of both, or either. Sexuality, like most things in life, isn't as "black and white" as we want it to be. Things are rarely that simple. Now if we look at the "people can become gay" non- genetic aspect, we can put it into relation of a million other things (as in people are often a product of their up bringing) if a child grows up with same sex parents, that will become "normal" for him/her and he will likely peruse the same lifestyle, which is often the case in those instances. Now, I'll put it into an extreme to better illustrate my point, pedophiles aren't "genetically predisposed" to be pedophiles (note: I'm NOT comparing them or endorsing what they do) there is something, say maybe a past trauma, that for one reason or another ingrained those thoughts into their head. They weren't born that way.

That tells us that sexuality can be a learned or socially adapted aspect of a person. The same could be said for homosexuality, it isn't necessarily brought on by a trauma but (as in the previously stated same sex parents scenario) it can be adapted through social interaction. In short, sexuality is a grey zone in the younger years, it really just depends on which side of you is embraced, and which side is shunned in the developmental stage. I.E. Sexuality can be heavily effected by ones social life and group dynamic.

-----------------------------------------flip tape to side B------------------------------------

On the other side of the fence, being genetically born gay is also a possibility. If we look at most humans and (feral) animals, we can see that the majority are "straight". The point of sex for both them and us is natural procreation, so obviously if a species doesn't want to die out it's going to make the males and females attracted to each other. It's just how we are created. Being born genetically gay is less likely but just as possible. I'm not sure if the "gay gene" is a fluke, an abnormality or whatever.

But I'm certainly happy it exists. However, on the natural side, it's definitely not "supposed" to happen, as it doesn't create more or contribute to the species. Our genes pretty much dictate who we are. Some people are predisposed to have blue eyes, some people are predisposed to be serial killers, some are predisposed to have down syndrome and others to have photographic memory etc etc.....

So, I really think it could be either. It could have been how you grew up, it could have been genetic, or it could have been both. This just my opinion.

Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postPosted: 3 October 2013, 07:00
by bazcus
Uhm, I may be a bit late for this, but I personally think that Homosexuality is something you are born with... or at least, a predisposition in your brain.

I remember when I was a child, I wondered why men kissed women in television, but there weren't men kissing men or women kissing women.
Then again, most boys hated me, so I kind of always craved for positive male attention.

I think it kind of makes sense in a natural way.
I mean, yes, homosexuality doesn't produce children, but perhaps it was nature's way to control the amount of births?

If everyone were straight, There would probably be far more people and animals born.
Of course, this is just an idea I have.

Re: Do you think people are born gay?

Unread postPosted: 12 October 2013, 21:04
by SilentBlack
I have no idea. :)

I think it is due to a combination of environmental and genetic factors. I have read some articles stating sexuality develops as you grow older.