Magic J wrote:PopTart wrote:But tribalism isn't progress. It's the very opposite of progress.
Tribalistic is a strong word. I'd actually agree that it's a fairly useful term to describe the general US political climate, but what worries me is when there's a conflation between "tribalism" and "having a strong view on an issue". I wouldn't describe Derek, for instance, as being tribalistic, because whilst he appears to have strong views, he's clearly not in lockstep with either of the political "tribes". It's not the same as intrangience, either: one could be unreasonably intrangient without being tribalistic. I'd say that requires a more "us and them" kind of attitude, usually with some conception of distinct and opposed "cultures" or worldviews? Maybe.
But there is a definate "culture" when talking about politics on this site. Nearly everyone here expresses the same views, parrots the same concepts and those few who dare express views, not in keeping with the wider community, get given the cold shoulder or outright chased out of town.
Read through this thread again. Make note, the amount of times, someone speaks negatively or derogatorily, about someone who might vote differently or people who have political views the poster might disagree with. The contempt is palpable. It might not be every post, but it is there, just beneath the surface and people want to handwave it away, to ignore it.
People speak of the likes of Trump, being a threat to democracy, but the breakdown in respect for those who hold different views, no matter how stupid you might think those views are, is just as much a threat to democracy. Why then does one threat get treated with such vehemence and a willingness to tackle, while the other gets swept under the rug? Could it be because, knowingly or not, we are active participants in one and not the other? We are complicit and don't want to accept responsibility for it and have to check ourselves?
If it can engender contempt amongst family, what hope do economically, cultural or religiously diverse political trains of thought and those that hold them, have of overcoming the increasing divisions in our society have?
You speak of the dangers of conflation, but it has become all too common, practically universal, here and out in the real world, to conflate ones political views, with ones character, with ones measure of worth and value.
How many times have I read Severilius speak with utter contempt for anyone that would vote Tory, for example? To assign to them, all manner of loathesome traits and unendearing qualities. I voted for the Tories in the last election. I would expand on the many, many, many reasons why, but there is no audience here that would care to listen, or atleast that wouldn't pass judgement and so I stay silent.
For that experience alone, I can empathise with those who wished to vote for Trump but didn't wish to speak about it, while I couldn't personally fathom why, they would vote for the man, I could relate to the desire not to have to face down the base contempt that came with it. You need look no further than comments by Jzone, Derek, Pooler, Brenden and many others, to see how that prevailing attitude of disgust for others of a different political mind can be found.
People have given up talking and I am here, telling you, the same is happening on this site, sure, maybe I'm the only one, maybe not. But where there is one, there is often more. If not just here, then in the real world generally.
There is no room left for understanding anyone who makes different choices, either here or anywhere else.
Tribalism, then, is perhaps, like the galaxy at large, hard to see, from the inside, it's boundaries being obscured, from being apart of the local group, but once on the outside, you recognise those boundaries, all too well.
Derek wrote:Nah fam, tribalism is when people have opinions and your opinion is that no one should have opinions.
Yet another presumption about my politics and views, well informed perhaps, but you never ask what I really think to find out for certain, much of the time I have no desire to correct you.
I have no issue with people having opinions! Want to hear my opinion? I think that you have a tendancy to be snobbish, condescending and lacking in any respect for others as you sneer down your nose at those you feel are your intellectual inferiors. Where once you did this in service to your "slightly right" political views, you now do it for the other side, but instead of changing the way you treat with people and becoming a better man, you instead, just started waving a different colour flag and continued to be the same, hopelessly judgemental person. Bit of a strong opinion, wouldn't you say? That is what i have been disappointed about Derek, because your about face turn, hasn't been a transformative moment, but a wardrobe change. Yet you strut and preen in your new garb, thinking yourself a new man.

You're not new, you're not "better" you think your part of some solution but the reality is, you are a continuing part of the problem.
Because I have no problem with people having strong views, I wish for people to be flexible in those views, but what worries me and concerns me most, is that casual hatred, disrespect and contempt those views seem to justify, towards anyone who holds different or opposing views from ones own.
It's shocking, how many supposedly liberal people here, people who I respect and admire, then go on to unfairly judge, dismiss and disregard, whole swathes of the political spectrum. It's one thing to have contempt for an opinion, quite another to have contempt for the holder of that opinion. <--- this is my issue. because it allows us to give zero fucks about what that person is saying, in a generalised fashion, it allows us to dismiss whole communities and social groups from consideration.
You either refuse to listen to the arguements made by political or idealogical opposites, when you do, if they don't articulate their views as well as you do, you dismiss their views and experiences as irrelevant. Oh, sure, there might be a "show" of listening, but it never really impacts upon your own notions. You've nailed your flag to a mast and there is nothing short of that boat sinking, that will get you to take that flag down. Even then, you might just go down with the ship, out of pride.