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Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postPosted: 24 September 2020, 18:34
by Derek
If not for the ass-backwards way our primary voting takes place, I would have voted. If not for the electoral college, I would consider voting. If we had a parliamentary system, I definitely would vote.

Of course, you guys have a parliament and you're not doing so hot. Progressive ideology itself was at some point defeated in recent history.

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postPosted: 24 September 2020, 18:45
by Brenden
Derek wrote:If we had a parliamentary system, I definitely would vote.

Parliamentary systems can also use first-past-the-post and actually result in more extremely anti-democratic results. See: Canada and the UK, where the Tories have in a number of elections received a ruling majority of seats with less than 40% of the vote (at least once it was barely more than ⅓ of votes).

The primary issue is FPTP.

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postPosted: 24 September 2020, 19:10
by PopTart
Our system has it's problems thats for sure. First past the post certainly seems to have encouraged two party politics which isn't great. But proportional representation, doesn't seem a good solution there.

I know alot of people have alot of bad things to say about our current political leadership, but honestly, I think that's an easy out, for complicated issues and something our political drama has in common with your own.

It's easy to frame the sorry state of politics as being the responsibility of the players and not look twice and the underlying systems in place that gave rise to them. You have Trump and the Not Trump opposition, while we have the bumbling buffon, who is also apparantly a tyrannical genius, with a thoroughly anemic opposition, whose only real charm is that it isn't the current government.

I would say that the underlying issues are very similar. Identifying those issues is perhaps the biggest challenge, closesly followed by getting people to care enough to affect meaningful change.

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postPosted: 24 September 2020, 19:13
by PopTart
Brenden wrote:The primary issue is FPTP.

All of the alternatives lead to weak, ineffectual government however, prone to legislative grid lock.

I do prefer a decisive majority in Parliament, even if it's a majority of the party I didn't vote for.

I like effective government.

Not government that is at war with itself at every turn.

Saw enough of that during brexit.

OT: orange man bad... mumble mumble

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postPosted: 24 September 2020, 19:20
by Derek
I mean, it's not as if arguing about problems ever improved the outcome of anything. I just want all the libs on the forum to feel as bad as I do.

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postPosted: 24 September 2020, 19:21
by PopTart
Thats easily done, force them to compromise.

Everyone gets to be unhappy together!


Aaahh, democracy!

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postPosted: 24 September 2020, 19:28
by Derek
They get off on compromising. I'm aiming for a blackpill.

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postPosted: 24 September 2020, 19:30
by PopTart
Derek for Prez!

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postPosted: 25 September 2020, 01:13
by Jzone
I'm tired of compromise. It seems to simply narrow the pendulum swing to a more clear and imminent doom.

I think one of the greatest challenges to political change in the US is that most of us only want to be bothered with it for one day every four years, and clearly too many can't even stomach that. A true democracy requires much more participation. Perhaps the best outcome of 2020 is that more people have taken to the streets for prolonged protest of the status quo. I honestly didn't think we had it in us anymore.

If changing the system requires first tearing it down, be prepared for things to get much worse before they get better. Maybe it will take the US falling further in its standing, and maybe never regaining "leadership of the free world." That could be a blessing, but we won't give up that mantle easily. I had hoped that bold leadership at the national level could prevent the fall, but I see no evidence of that possibility anymore.

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postPosted: 25 September 2020, 02:09
by Derek
Jzone wrote:I'm tired of compromise. It seems to simply narrow the pendulum swing to a more clear and imminent doom.

Preach

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postPosted: 25 September 2020, 08:51
by PopTart
Jzone wrote:I'm tired of compromise. It seems to simply narrow the pendulum swing to a more clear and imminent doom.

I think one of the greatest challenges to political change in the US is that most of us only want to be bothered with it for one day every four years, and clearly too many can't even stomach that. A true democracy requires much more participation. Perhaps the best outcome of 2020 is that more people have taken to the streets for prolonged protest of the status quo. I honestly didn't think we had it in us anymore.

If changing the system requires first tearing it down, be prepared for things to get much worse before they get better. Maybe it will take the US falling further in its standing, and maybe never regaining "leadership of the free world." That could be a blessing, but we won't give up that mantle easily. I had hoped that bold leadership at the national level could prevent the fall, but I see no evidence of that possibility anymore.

:D But sometimes the fall doesn't stop and mutual dignity and respect start to look just as appealing and distant, as change. ;)

Your sentiment regarding the loss of America's pre-eminence and the willingness to sacrifice it, however, is one I'm hearing more often from many Americans. I just wonder if this is a 'turning of the screw' as the US seeks to 'turn back time' return to a more inwardly focused, isolationist mentality that once characterised it's past.

America does alot of naval gazing these days, a comfortable distraction from the very real, more daunting challenges that face the world. I guess we are all abit tired.

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postPosted: 25 September 2020, 10:14
by Brenden
PopTart wrote:
Brenden wrote:The primary issue is FPTP.

All of the alternatives lead to weak, ineffectual government however, prone to legislative grid lock.

I do prefer a decisive majority in Parliament, even if it's a majority of the party I didn't vote for.

I like effective government.

Not government that is at war with itself at every turn.

Saw enough of that during brexit.

Germany and the Netherlands both have proportional representation and haven't had a single party in majority for many years. Merkel has been Chancellor of Germany since 2005 and Mark Rutte has been Prime Minister of the Netherlands since 2010 — 15 and 10 years of pretty stable governance.

In systems where parties know going in that they're not going to get a majority and will need to form a coalition, they know how to negotiate good coalitions. It's not like the once-in-a-blue-moon 'Hung Parliament' scenarios you see in systems where parties expect to either win or lose.

For 8 years in the 90s and early 2000s, the Netherlands had a mixed coalition government called the 'purple' because it was formed from left, right, and centre parties. That coalition resulted in some of the greatest changes to Dutch society in decades, including legalising same-sex marriage, prostitution, and euthanasia. That's what happens when parties compromise: good governance with a truly democratic mandate.

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postPosted: 25 September 2020, 11:23
by PopTart
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that PR doesn't work.

I'm saying it wont work here (EDIT: At this time, not ever, just not right now, with the political class we have) just as I don't feel it will work in the states, owing largely to the political culture, being fundamentally different than in those places it does meet with success. We can point to the Australian government, which also uses PR and I would argue, that many Australians, don't feel their government is particularly great. I'd tend to agree.

I think the issue of political culture is perhaps, at the root of the growing disatisfaction in the UK, US and perhaps, even Australia. The political class are increasingly out of touch with the average person and have become increasingly insular.

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postPosted: 30 September 2020, 04:53
by Derek
It's weird how much liberals like debates considering what effect they have. Trump shits and wails and no one's opinion of him has changed. The feckless liberal sputters and whinges, "winning" the debate by virtue of speaking in distinct clauses, but people only come out thinking worse of them if their opinion has changed at all.

I think we can do better. People just want culture war bullshit anyway. Make Don Jr. debate Michael Avenatti. Make Roger Stone debate a Parkland teen. Make Steve Bannon debate Meghan McCain. Make Hunter Biden debate anyone. We all deserve a treat.

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postPosted: 30 September 2020, 06:02
by poolerboy0077
Parkland teen to debate Covington teen.*

Shooting victim liberal teens don’t stand a chance against maligned conservative teens indignant over political correctness and cancel culture.

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postPosted: 30 September 2020, 15:03
by PopTart
I missed the debate. Was it bad?

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postPosted: 30 September 2020, 15:36
by René
PopTart wrote:I missed the debate. Was it bad?

Brenden actually stayed up to watch it. I'm sure he can tell us all about it.

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postPosted: 30 September 2020, 15:44
by PopTart
I'd appreciate any opinions people might share, I don't relish trying to dig through the multitudinous number of breakdowns by crazed people on YouTube or in the media, searching for nuggets of wisdom or insight, amidst the flotsam and jetsom of turds that are a near inevitability.

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postPosted: 30 September 2020, 16:31
by Brenden
It was headache-inducing.

Re: 2020 Presidential Election | General

Unread postPosted: 30 September 2020, 16:33
by PopTart
Brenden wrote:It was headache-inducing.

:rofl:

I can just imagine :D

Was there any sense to be found?