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Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postPosted: 27 February 2022, 23:27
by Brenden
So to "make peace" with a backwards country whose economy is smaller than Spain's we should just throw the non-Russian Slavs of Europe under Russia's rusty bus and not allow them self-determination as to which international organisations they want to belong to and associate with?

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postPosted: 28 February 2022, 00:04
by Derek
...Is that addressed to me?

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postPosted: 28 February 2022, 01:01
by pozzie
Brenden wrote:So to "make peace" with a backwards country whose economy is smaller than Spain's we should just throw the non-Russian Slavs of Europe under Russia's rusty bus and not allow them self-determination as to which international organisations they want to belong to and associate with?


:argh: no

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postPosted: 28 February 2022, 02:15
by Brenden
Derek wrote:...Is that addressed to me?

No, to PopTart, who, based on my skimming, seems to think the Warsaw Pact should be brought back to appease Russia.

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postPosted: 28 February 2022, 02:36
by pozzie
Brenden wrote:
Derek wrote:...Is that addressed to me?

No, to PopTart, who, based on my skimming, seems to think the Warsaw Pact should be brought back to appease Russia.


that's not what I got from reading his posts

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postPosted: 28 February 2022, 03:28
by pozzie
PopTart asked about Trump's hold. Here's a view from the Conservative PAC's annual meeting that happened over the weekend.

Trump is still the star of the show

If there was ever any doubt about Trump’s influence over the conservative base of the Republican Party, CPAC put it to rest.

Nearly 15 months after losing his 2020 reelection bid, the former president still dominated the conference; red “Make America Great Again” hats speckled the crowds, vendors sold “Trump 2024” merchandise and attendees repeatedly expressed a desire to see the former president mount another bid for the White House in 2024.

That was confirmed on Sunday with the release of the results of CPAC’s 2024 presidential straw poll, which showed Trump as the heavy favorite among attendees to win the GOP nod. Fifty-nine percent said they would vote for Trump in a hypothetical primary that included more than a dozen prospective candidates.


While in recent years single term LOSERS typically move on to do something else after they leave the White House, it's probably not much of a stretch to say conventional wisdom is Trump will run again in 2024, well, unless he meets up with his flock of quails.

And on topic, I'm reading more analysis where people are talking about PUTIN deviating from usual communication patterns suggesting something fundamental has changed. I'm really not sure if this is all part of his master plan to rule the world or if maybe they've been drinking too much Paranoia Springs bottled water.

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postPosted: 28 February 2022, 06:47
by Derek
pozzie wrote:
Brenden wrote:
Derek wrote:...Is that addressed to me?

No, to PopTart, who, based on my skimming, seems to think the Warsaw Pact should be brought back to appease Russia.


that's not what I got from reading his posts

Yeah that's not what he was saying. I was confused because I'm the one arguing that we shouldn't go to war.

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postPosted: 28 February 2022, 08:13
by PopTart
Brenden wrote:
Derek wrote:...Is that addressed to me?

No, to PopTart, who, based on my skimming, seems to think the Warsaw Pact should be brought back to appease Russia.

:facepalm2: maybe don't skim and read it properly?

Derek wrote:René, would you consider adding a :jack-off: emoji?
Why are you calling me a wanker? Unless you mean something else by the proposed emoji?

Derek wrote:I think we can agree that we're not going to agree, so let's just wait 30 years and see who was right.
Absolutely, I've no interest in a protracted argument.

I'm merely expressing my perspective on the matter, I don't need you to agree with me and I think it's clear we don't agree in much :P

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postPosted: 28 February 2022, 08:40
by Derek
Social media is intolerable right now. Like

Image

We're all pissed at Russia but shit like this or outright horny posting for Zelenskyy is so cringey. When we're fighting bitterly with each other it at least imposes a degree of quality control.

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postPosted: 28 February 2022, 08:44
by PopTart
Derek wrote:Social media is intolerable right now. Like

Image

We're all pissed at Russia but shit like this or outright horny posting for Zelenskyy is so cringey. When we're fighting bitterly with each other it at least imposes a degree of quality control.

Now what on Earth makes you think that "Quality" could ever be a word that could live side by side with the words "Social media"?

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postPosted: 28 February 2022, 08:57
by pozzie
PopTart wrote:
Derek wrote:Social media is intolerable right now. Like

Image

We're all pissed at Russia but shit like this or outright horny posting for Zelenskyy is so cringey. When we're fighting bitterly with each other it at least imposes a degree of quality control.

Now what on Earth makes you think that "Quality" could ever be a word that could live side by side with the words "Social media"?


:english: clearly you haven't heard of Truth.Social yet :monocle:

actually, I think EL's wife's probably got a point :devil: and I thought it kind of funny :lol:

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postPosted: 28 February 2022, 13:49
by Brenden
PopTart wrote:
Brenden wrote:
Derek wrote:...Is that addressed to me?

No, to PopTart, who, based on my skimming, seems to think the Warsaw Pact should be brought back to appease Russia.

:facepalm2: maybe don't skim and read it properly?

Then what was your point here:?

PopTart wrote:All Putin has to do, is make war or the prospect of war, so miserable, that people like you and me, demand that our governments make peace. Do you know what peace looks like?

It looks like this:

nato-eastern-europe.jpg


I find it hard to follow your train of thought through the back and forth.

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postPosted: 28 February 2022, 14:26
by PopTart
Brenden wrote:
PopTart wrote:
Brenden wrote:
Derek wrote:...Is that addressed to me?

No, to PopTart, who, based on my skimming, seems to think the Warsaw Pact should be brought back to appease Russia.

:facepalm2: maybe don't skim and read it properly?

Then what was your point here:?

PopTart wrote:All Putin has to do, is make war or the prospect of war, so miserable, that people like you and me, demand that our governments make peace. Do you know what peace looks like?

It looks like this:

nato-eastern-europe.jpg


I find it hard to follow your train of thought through the back and forth.

:sigh: If what everyone is hoping for, is that Nato will not have to eventually confront Putins Russia, the only way that is going to happen, is if Putin isn't leading Russia or if the West capitulates to his demands.

What Putin wants and he has made this very clear, in his national addresses, in his conduct towards the west, in his rhetoric and everything else, is the restoration of Russias Soviet Borders. He has made it clear, he believes the dissolution of the Soviet Empire was a mistake, one that he wants put right and he believes he is the only one who put it right.

It doesn't matter what assurances he gives (he has already broken numerous agreements, he has used deceit and subterfuge to circumvent law and treaties) it doesn't matter what concessions we promise, it will never be enough, until the former soviet borders are restored and Russia is returned to its former glory. Nothing else will satisfy him.

Those who seek to avoid conflict, out of fear, out of the belief it won't be necessary at some point, out of an unwillingness to get behind what Nato or the West represents. Don't want to acknowledge that we are dealing with a man, who is not mad, nor stupid. He is driven and possessed by this desire to restore Russia and destroy the old Western enemy.

He mentions the CIA more often in his speeches, than he does Ukraine. Ukraine isn't his enemy, the west is.

I suggest, that to have peace, to never face conflict with this man and his mob empire, we will have to engage in a campaign of appeasement, that will only end, when Putin and the other nationalistic Revanchists of Russia are satiated. That is, when the old borders are restored. EDIT: or when Putin is replaced, but let's be honest, Russia has always been ruled by despots and Tyrants. It has never known anything different. Putin is the latest in a long line of people in a culture where power is seized and wielded against the people, who are made to fear that power.

That is the cost of peace. That is what we will have to pay and anyone who thinks otherwise, I think is kidding themselves. For whatever reasons.

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postPosted: 28 February 2022, 19:43
by Marmaduke
Things as they stand now, there is zero chance NATO will intercede manifestly and place boots on the ground. Putin knows that, it’s not his primary concern.

There is a degree on inevitability to Russia’s intention to partition and occupy Ukraine. Russia sees Ukraine as an illegitimate state which now controls the breadbasket of Eurasia. Ukraine sees Russia largely as the vestige of the Soviet Union which forced it to shore up the collectivised agriculture of the USSR and politically directed a famine which killed millions of people and then blamed them for their own deaths. There isn’t a negotiating table around which they can bridge that. More than NATO, the UN understands that. Russia is a nuclear power not shy of broaching the idea of employing that power, Ukraine isn’t. The world can only keep one happy. Russia knows that as much as everyone else does and has paid us all the small courtesy of giving enough fabricated context that we don’t need to be seen to do much more than go through the motions. Russia cares not for the motions.

There is no direct risk to letting Russia do what it wants. The biggest danger is we spend so much effort trying to make it look like we’re doing more than we are that we miss as China follows Russia’s lead and fabricates a political-military crisis in Taiwan upon which it will create a new crisis in the South China Sea. Except we won’t care about that, because it’s not Caucasians and we’ve let China go pretty much unchallenged in conducting an ethnic cleanse by way of demonstrating our profound disinterest towards Asians and Muslims. We then have two blocks that, whilst not openly singing each other’s praises, are singing in perfect harmony on their distaste of us.

There is nothing but obvious risk is confronting Russia and declaring war. I think on basic principle, despite believing the cost would be great and we probably wouldn’t win, I would support the decision to declare were it made. Would I make it myself in the position of power? Perhaps not, probably not, but the business of statecraft is rarely the business of virtuous principle and more transactional cost-versus-reward. The danger of radical escalation is too great to barter than trade.

On that basis, the best outcome for us comes from the Ukrainians themselves. Notwithstanding its vastly superior military power, Russia has made missteps in its early occupation and obviously underestimated the Ukrainian appetite to defend their sovereignty whatever the cost. It seems they have rested a lot strategically on their previous track record of using force until the other side backs down, and in all senses the opposite has happened on this occasion. This will become a years long guerrilla war and, like America in Vietnam, Russia may find itself bogged down in an unwinable occupation, the outcomes of which could be profound. The subsequent collapse of the Putin regime is conceivable and the damage caused to Russia by the chaotic and cavernous power vacuum left behind would be immense, but the danger that vacuum poses may motivate Putin to make choices that would force military action. Is it beyond Putin to deploy chemical weapons when faced with the prospect of losing an engagement upon which his presidency and life depend?

The martyr in me thinks we should go to war. The pragmatist knows we won’t. The optimist chooses to believe that perhaps that’s the best option, that the opportunity for victory rests not with US but with Ukraine and we’ve perhaps been too dismissive of their ability to deliver. Most importantly, the realist accepts that I’m powerless to change the situation, I’m not a scholar of Eurasian geopolitical history, and ultimately I don’t really care because it doesn’t directly affect me at this time.

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postPosted: 1 March 2022, 00:49
by Brenden


I wasn't aware of Ukrainian gas field discoveries or that Ukraine had blocked the Crimean canal.

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postPosted: 1 March 2022, 06:43
by Derek
Guys, we're winning!!

Image

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postPosted: 1 March 2022, 07:37
by pozzie
A Netflix deal can't be far behind.

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postPosted: 1 March 2022, 23:50
by PopTart
Derek wrote:Guys, we're winning!!

Image

:lol:

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postPosted: 2 March 2022, 13:20
by Severelius
I already felt slightly awkward about choosing to learn Russian of all languages but this has just made it even more awkward to be learning it. :lol:

Re: Russia & Ukraine

Unread postPosted: 2 March 2022, 14:19
by erti
Severelius wrote:I already felt slightly awkward about choosing to learn Russian of all languages but this has just made it even more awkward to be learning it. :lol:


Think of it is this way… most Russians do not support what Putin is doing. Putin =/= Russians culture.