Gay Forum

Hi there, it is me again with the topic about violence.
Maybe for you it will be a sensational news but in my country (Ukraine, which was part if USSR long ago) it is still normal to have relationship when a husband beats wife and kids and so on, and it is called socially appropriate form of behavior. Mean, this is not the thing that surprise people. They say here, "if he beats you - means he loves you" (in Rusian it is "бьёт - значит любит"). Luckily in Ukraine you can report such a home tyrant, but in Russia they have decriminalized violence at home few years before, so you cannot imagine that your abuser will be punished.
At the quarantine period not only me has sufffered from cruelty, but also our local famous people. Among them is one Russian actress Agata whose husband started to drink heavily and beat her. And what you think happened next? Another local celebrity with 8.2 mln followers in Instagram (isn't that really much?) Regina Todorenko said in her interview that - attention! - only lunatics will publicly speak about the fact of being a victim of violence, and, a quotation"What did SHE do to make him not beat her?!" As if it is some kind of norm.
Also, this woman Regina is widely known as show presenter and singer, and she has numerous advertising campaigns and model contracts with many brands. She does not realize that she said something wrong, as well as brands do not tend to cancel all collaborations with her. Only people are angry at her (women mostly). So i want to know your opinion, if you please, how would react you and what would do society in your country in such case? Should she be punished?
I wonder if it is right thing to discuss here, but as a stream of emotion.... Forgive me this topic please)
Also some screens to make sure she really has influence and many followers, and her another quotation in Russian: "If you want not to be beaten by your husband - just become rich and famous as me!" Wtf is this?! (Also, it helped much when Rihanna was beaten too *sarcasm*)
Funny fact to finish the picture: Regina Todorenko was named a woman of the year by local Glamour magazine for women.

Well, I guess we could well expand on the subject of domestic violence and it's special increase while we've got the quarantine up, as this will be taking place in gay relationships likely in a similar fashion.

Also in some western places it had been, or still would be so, that they look at domestic violence as a minor problem. I grew up in a place and time where this was not yet a crime. The more, it used to be acceptable for a husband to even rape his woman, if she would refuse to serve him as he wanted her to. That was only just criminalised in 1997 here. While the beating and punishment for kids kept going on.
There's a similar quotation in the Catholic lore that goes toward raising kids "Wer sein Kind liebt, züchtigt es. and "Wer sein Kind liebt, der schont die Rute nicht." ( Said to origin in the bible, Solomon 13:24 and a translation of Martin Luther ) 'Who loves their child will chastise them' and ' Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.'
There are various mentions of this as there are a lot of versions of interpretation the religious use
https://biblehub.com/proverbs/13-24.htm

So I don't know what would happen to that lady from the online place. I guess nowadays they would call her a lunatic, pretty well. Not ionly since #metoo went around, there have been all those men - usually men - accused to violate basic rights of women - usually they're women - and in a world of manners and common sense, the so called normal people would not support violence in such a way.

So if someone would treat their girlfriend, lady, wife like one was to treat their friends, no beating, no violent treatment, that like, they ought to be happy and find themselves treated properly.

I can't say much about masochistic people. I don't know how much the culture in Russia or the Ukraine would be susceptible to masochism or some type of internalised victim role or something.

I just must wonder, why does everyone have to be so rude all the time?
Would it be some weird concept of being strong, being in charge, having to show off one's in charge, with beating up their women?
To us westerners, to many of them, anyhow, this would be showing off with weakness. People that have to beat up their women, their partner, their loved ones, seem to be primitive or weak in character. They have to make up for their missing mental resources by beating and do that ape show off behaviour, sort of.

With all the drinking it seems to be a culture thing in the Russian and Slavic places, is that correct?
With the alcohol, often it's like abuse of many other drugs, it leads to a clouded mind and aggression management will fail. So naturally, a lot of the domestic violence involves alcohol or other drug abuse.
I think, with the quarantine regulations the common aggression levels are more difficult to manage yet. It's a stress increase situation, the folks just can't get apart, or not very well. It's taking it's toll on the human ability to self-control and inner balance and everything. Certain people tend to freak out more easy, I would guess.

Of course, the laws can not prevent every case of violence, but to have the possibility to file charges against these who beat one up, we can be thankful for that.
I find it very sad and regressive, what happened to Russia in the past years. They were a culture of high values and great literature, films and art. It seems that just the wrong choices in leadership and all the oligarch business, the return of the religious influence and some of this has kind of wrecked that culture. At least this would be how quite some people look at the regressive happenings over there.
Also, the laws about 'Homo propaganda' have added to that a picture. I mean, wtf? If it truly was about paedophiles I'd understand, but there are more paedophiles in the heterosexual part of the people just by real numbers. So that was not about fears of paedophiles they would have had to protect anyone from. Else they also would have banned Church propaganda and the like.

Okay, some thoughts that went through my mind. I don't know that lady. The comment about getting as rich as she got, well, sort of decadent a bit? I dunno. Only to mean, that wealth seems to be a way out of this, since intellect and human rights principles are doomed to fail? It does not stop to give discomfort.

GearFetTwinkRomance wrote:Well, I guess we could well expand on the subject of domestic violence and it's special increase while we've got the quarantine up, as this will be taking place in gay relationships likely in a similar fashion.

Also in some western places it had been, or still would be so, that they look at domestic violence as a minor problem. I grew up in a place and time where this was not yet a crime. The more, it used to be acceptable for a husband to even rape his woman, if she would refuse to serve him as he wanted her to. That was only just criminalised in 1997 here. While the beating and punishment for kids kept going on.
There's a similar quotation in the Catholic lore that goes toward raising kids "Wer sein Kind liebt, züchtigt es. and "Wer sein Kind liebt, der schont die Rute nicht." ( Said to origin in the bible, Solomon 13:24 and a translation of Martin Luther ) 'Who loves their child will chastise them' and ' Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.'
There are various mentions of this as there are a lot of versions of interpretation the religious use
https://biblehub.com/proverbs/13-24.htm

So I don't know what would happen to that lady from the online place. I guess nowadays they would call her a lunatic, pretty well. Not ionly since #metoo went around, there have been all those men - usually men - accused to violate basic rights of women - usually they're women - and in a world of manners and common sense, the so called normal people would not support violence in such a way.

So if someone would treat their girlfriend, lady, wife like one was to treat their friends, no beating, no violent treatment, that like, they ought to be happy and find themselves treated properly.

I can't say much about masochistic people. I don't know how much the culture in Russia or the Ukraine would be susceptible to masochism or some type of internalised victim role or something.

I just must wonder, why does everyone have to be so rude all the time?
Would it be some weird concept of being strong, being in charge, having to show off one's in charge, with beating up their women?
To us westerners, to many of them, anyhow, this would be showing off with weakness. People that have to beat up their women, their partner, their loved ones, seem to be primitive or weak in character. They have to make up for their missing mental resources by beating and do that ape show off behaviour, sort of.

With all the drinking it seems to be a culture thing in the Russian and Slavic places, is that correct?
With the alcohol, often it's like abuse of many other drugs, it leads to a clouded mind and aggression management will fail. So naturally, a lot of the domestic violence involves alcohol or other drug abuse.
I think, with the quarantine regulations the common aggression levels are more difficult to manage yet. It's a stress increase situation, the folks just can't get apart, or not very well. It's taking it's toll on the human ability to self-control and inner balance and everything. Certain people tend to freak out more easy, I would guess.

Of course, the laws can not prevent every case of violence, but to have the possibility to file charges against these who beat one up, we can be thankful for that.
I find it very sad and regressive, what happened to Russia in the past years. They were a culture of high values and great literature, films and art. It seems that just the wrong choices in leadership and all the oligarch business, the return of the religious influence and some of this has kind of wrecked that culture. At least this would be how quite some people look at the regressive happenings over there.
Also, the laws about 'Homo propaganda' have added to that a picture. I mean, wtf? If it truly was about paedophiles I'd understand, but there are more paedophiles in the heterosexual part of the people just by real numbers. So that was not about fears of paedophiles they would have had to protect anyone from. Else they also would have banned Church propaganda and the like.

Okay, some thoughts that went through my mind. I don't know that lady. The comment about getting as rich as she got, well, sort of decadent a bit? I dunno. Only to mean, that wealth seems to be a way out of this, since intellect and human rights principles are doomed to fail? It does not stop to give discomfort.

Thank you for such a reply, seems like you see this situation exactly as i do.

I'd comment on alcoholism and showing off power.

Alcoholism is common thing here, for too many people it is the only way of entertainment, since they have no money, time or possibility to have normal hobbys as sports, cooking, art and so on. But when you drink you forget all the burden of troubles in your life and look at anything more optimistic. Normal alcohol here is expensive, but beer and vodka are quite cheap, so everyone drink it. For example, a bottle of beer is about $0.5 to $1, bottle of vodka from $1,5. Easy! I know it is not an excuse to become an alcoholic, but for many people it is.

Also, no one knows what to do with their lives in general. Our nations were full time slaves in last 300 years or more (10 generations or more!), being slaves to Russian Empire, then to Communists, and we always did what we were told. Having own opinion and aims was not appropriate. Now we are independent, but mind is still the same. So we are really like victims, we are lost, waiting for someone to tell us what to do. And also a bit of masochists. And we like to discuss it with anyone as if boasting. It is kinda general competition on Who has the biggest trouble or Who's boss is the baddest. "My boss told me to do extra work on sunday with no payment and no day-off instead!" - "Ha! That's nothing, MY boss told me the same but also on Saturday too! And gave me a hint that it would become my routine"
If you look at face of people who discuss this you could surprisingly see that they look like happy at the moment. Their bosses are such badasses!

Also what about being tolerant to violence. After world wars, especially after 1945, too few men were left. And women appraised them too much, like "Oh please you do nothing, and i will serve you and be your wife, please, just let me be mother of your children!" So men and their offsprings were raised in the atmosphere of total worship. Just if you have dick you are great, no matter that you are alcoholic, or tyrant, or just weirdo. Women with no man were underrated as if they failed to get a man, so they are misfits. Maybe this is the key. Men here still think they are kings, especially with a bottle in hand.

Very interesting post, thanks for sharing.

Reminds me of a book by Oliver Bullough, The Last Man in Russia. It explores the relationship between anomie and alcoholism in Russia specifically. Follows a priest who was trying to rekindle some sense of shared community. Sad story. The priest succumbs to raging Jew hating and power worship by the end. Can't remember much of the details, but I think I'd recommend, if you wanted something from a British perspective.

On your question: should women who tacitly support domestic violence be punished by censoring or whatever? It's a difficult question. I'm usually inclined to take people at their word, but in cases like this, suggesting "false consciousness" seems appropriate. They're a primary victim here, and I just can't advocate "punishing" victims. But it's also a messaging issue, and I wouldn't want to provide support for that sort of message. Needless to say, I think Todorenko's sentiment should be heavily criticised when she sees fit to air it. That's, hopefully, a way to keep a challenge to popular views on domestic violence in everybody's minds.

In my country, certainly (U.K, Scotland), this sort of thing would usually be met with a dropped contract and justified outrage. Still, there are problems.

Magic J wrote:Very interesting post, thanks for sharing.

Reminds me of a book by Oliver Bullough, The Last Man in Russia. It explores the relationship between anomie and alcoholism in Russia specifically. Follows a priest who was trying to rekindle some sense of shared community. Sad story. The priest succumbs to raging Jew hating and power worship by the end. Can't remember much of the details, but I think I'd recommend, if you wanted something from a British perspective.

On your question: should women who tacitly support domestic violence be punished by censoring or whatever? It's a difficult question. I'm usually inclined to take people at their word, but in cases like this, suggesting "false consciousness" seems appropriate. They're a primary victim here, and I just can't advocate "punishing" victims. But it's also a messaging issue, and I wouldn't want to provide support for that sort of message. Needless to say, I think Todorenko's sentiment should be heavily criticised when she sees fit to air it. That's, hopefully, a way to keep a challenge to popular views on domestic violence in everybody's minds.

In my country, certainly (U.K, Scotland), this sort of thing would usually be met with a dropped contract and justified outrage. Still, there are problems.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I add the book you advice to my list.

Yes, i also think it is sort of inappropriate behaviour as for an influencer. But also hatred shouldn't be prevailing thing in this world, so i think quiet ignore towards her would be good. However, she had 8.2 mln yesterday - and 8.3 mln today) I'd say it is... surprising.

Interesting, this is a fascinating contrast to what has happened just now in Brazil. In our last season of Big Brother, nearly all of the guys were sent home at the beginning of the show because of sexist stuff they said, sexist stuff they did and their histories before they were invited.

One of the guys got investigated for harassment charges inside the house. Another one was blasted on elimination, because here in Brazil it's the public who votes in the show, and everyone was furious about how he was treating his showmance during the season.

Three girls were finalists and their conversation and points of view were all feminist. The winner was a black, adopted girl from a poor family who worked her way up to become a doctor.

The LGBT aspect has become a lot more normalized here too, to the point where there was an asexual guy in this season whose sexuality was never put into question by participants or the public, only when he decided he had a crush on the aforementioned guy. He even stole the dude's necklace to take home, so convinced he lived in a love triangle. Still, people didn't use this as an escape goat to an LGBT stereotype. He was simply disliked for who he was and voted out.

For most of my life, I believed I lived in a very conservative culture that would take a long time to change and that religion would get in the way. Nowadays, I realize Brazil is actually pretty chill on a lot of things. I wonder what are the reasons for Eastern European culture still being so sexist and homophobic, and why there are successful outliers like Czechia.

Eryx wrote:Interesting, this is a fascinating contrast to what has happened just now in Brazil. In our last season of Big Brother, nearly all of the guys were sent home at the beginning of the show because of sexist stuff they said, sexist stuff they did and their histories before they were invited.

One of the guys got investigated for harassment charges inside the house. Another one was blasted on elimination, because here in Brazil it's the public who votes in the show, and everyone was furious about how he was treating his showmance during the season.

Three girls were finalists and their conversation and points of view were all feminist. The winner was a black, adopted girl from a poor family who worked her way up to become a doctor.

The LGBT aspect has become a lot more normalized here too, to the point where there was an asexual guy in this season whose sexuality was never put into question by participants or the public, only when he decided he had a crush on the aforementioned guy. He even stole the dude's necklace to take home, so convinced he lived in a love triangle. Still, people didn't use this as an escape goat to an LGBT stereotype. He was simply disliked for who he was and voted out.

For most of my life, I believed I lived in a very conservative culture that would take a long time to change and that religion would get in the way. Nowadays, I realize Brazil is actually pretty chill on a lot of things. I wonder what are the reasons for Eastern European culture still being so sexist and homophobic, and why there are successful outliers like Czechia.

To be honest i also think Ukraine is on the right way from conservative medieval society to tolerance. Personally i was born in Russia, Moscow, and when i was 21 i realized i cannot live there, so i moved to Ukraine which appeared to be much more liberal and tolerant to me. Maybe it is just because Ukraine wants to be a part of EU, but still it is good. Also i like that they talk about discrimination of LGBTQ more than about gay propaganda, and when the speaker of Ukrainian church supposed that coronavirus was caused by god because of gays, people laughed at him pointing out that church has to stop stigmatize gays. But still there is much trouble.

I think former USSR members just still are afraid of LGBT community because in USSR being gay was a crime. Also everyone is concerned about "what other people may think?!" My mother doesn't talk to me because of that. Also parents of my ex were extremely confused and tried to set us apart. So people of 40 y.o. and more are confused, people of new generation are luckily rather tolerant.

UPD on the topic: Regina Todorenko is not a woman of the year anymore and she was left with no contracts such as PepsiCo and Procter&Gamble contracts. She apologized and started to think over her way to help victims of home violence. Was that sincere or made because of public pressure? I dunno. But still i think anyone is free to think whatever we want, but before to translate it into the public we have to think it over many times and be sure it will not affect people badly. Especially if you are an influencer. Also it didn't pass unnoticed by media and many other influencer. And now many of them will be more careful as for such stupid comments. That is something new to our countries but i am glad it happens.

Please teach that to my fucking president -_-

Здоровеньки булы! First, I agree with you that violence is always bad. Second, it should be remembered that besides physical violence there is also psychological violence. Men are probably more likely to be victims of domestic psychological violence, while women are more likely to be victims of physical violence. Frankly, I agree with Regina Todorenko that due to social pressure men are not allowed to reveal their feelings (the 3rd sentence in the post by Regina Todorenko) and receive less social support, which, among other things, causes that they are more likely to demonstrate physical violence. (I am not Slavic, but I understand Russian.)

The vast majority of the media attention is paid to the violence against women only. It is also bad. Please have a look at violence frequencies in an Eastern European country (neighbouring to Ukraine). Below are given frequencies of men and women who have admitted to be victims and perpetrators of domestic violence.